Ron, I don't recall seeing this in the constitution or bill of rights.........
"Annex A is not a part of the requirements of this NFPA document but is included for informational purposes only. This annex contains explanatory material, numbered to correspond with the applicable text paragraphs." Problem is that when some one purchases the standard they are now compelled to purchase 166 pages of commentary (NFPA-13-2013) and that's not right. With that said then NFPA should offer a) the standard, b) the standard with annex c) the handbook, etc etc. When an AHJ goes in the annex oh boy the phones start ringing, when a designer contractor goes in the annex the AHJ is expected to conform. So which way do you want it for us AHJ's ? PS just had an architect reference IBC commentary to which I replied how about last month when I was using the commentary to support sprinklering a building.....reply....well were not talking about that now. John ________________________________________ From: Sprinklerforum [[email protected]] on behalf of rongreenman . [[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2015 2:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: porte cochere There was once a debate about attaching a Bill of Rights to the Constitution. The yeas argued that having such a bill would define the most basic of fundamental rights whilst the nays said the including it could be construed to mean those rights were the only rights individuals had. (If you are unawares of this and would like to read the actual debate they are compiled as The Federalist Papers and most were authored by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison using pseudonyms.) I mention this as this debate reminds of that. I personally like the section(s) we're talking about as I am constantly using the examples as a jumping off place. I like them in the annex as it leaves them flexible as examples. I'd like them in the body as they would then be definitive to a AHJs. The downside to the former is that they can interpreted by the AHJ or even ignored. The downside to the latter is they can be used as definitive and not as examples, leaving anything not listed open to any interpretation. A conundrum. In either case, I certainly would not like to see them outside of the standard (although an article, in depth, in the handbook about how to use them effectively would certainly be welcome). And the debate will continue I hope. On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Rod DiBona <[email protected]> wrote: > Have to agree, point well taken. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker > - Home > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2015 11:15 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: porte cochere > > The operative term....."the annex". If I had my druthers there would be > no > more annex which unfortunately is used to insert things under the cover of > the standard that otherwise aren't part of the standard. We tell AHJ's > that they cannot cite the annex yet on a routine basis we have architects, > engineers, technicians, owners doing just that. Either put the language, > diagrams, tables etc. in the standard or place them in a handbook or > commentary. > > PS, put a tab in the standard where the annex starts and you will see half > of the book is annex material so were paying for that too. > > Travis, not directed at you, just commentary in general. > > John Drucker, CET > Assistant Construction Official > Fire Protection Subcode Official > Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] > On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET > Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2015 12:32 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: porte cochere > > Well that clears up the intent right there pretty much. > > It's interesting because the annex for the 2013 says that vehicles that > are temporarily parked shall not be considered storage. It also states > that transient storage such as that for delivered packages, planters or > newspaper machines, etc..shall not be considered storage... > > That has been used in the areas where they determine the porte cochere to > be LH. Yet, areas where they want it as OH say that it is like a parking > garage. > > However, it seems the confusion has been cleared up for sure. > > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > 2508 E Lodgepole Drive > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > 480-505-9271 > fax: 866-430-6107 > email:[email protected] > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > On 11/3/2015 10:26 AM, Tom Wellen wrote: > > Fresh on the mind from a 2016 NFPA 13 update seminar - see new items > > 10 > and 11 below: > > > > A.5.3.1 Ordinary hazard (Group 1) occupancies include occupancies > > having uses and conditions similar to the following: > > (1) Automobile parking and showrooms > > (2) Bakeries > > (3) Beverage manufacturing > > (4) Canneries > > (5) Dairy products manufacturing and processing > > (6) Electronic plants > > (7) Glass and glass products manufacturing > > (8) Laundries > > (9) Restaurant service areas > > (10) Porte cocheres > > (11) Mechanical rooms > > > > > > Tom Wellen - AFSA > > > >> On Nov 3, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Steve Mackinnon <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> OH1 here... > >> > >> Steven MacKinnon > >> Fire Protection Division > >> Hartcorn Plumbing and Heating, Inc. > >> 850 South Second Street > >> Ronkonkoma, NY 11779 > >> Office 631-580-2300 Fax - 631-580-1090 > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> Travis Mack, SET > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2015 12:12 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: porte cochere > >> > >> What density do you guys design these structures to? LH or OH1? I've > seen them done by ways, and just looking for some backing for either way. > >> > >> -- > >> Travis Mack, SET > >> MFP Design, LLC > >> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive > >> Gilbert, AZ 85298 > >> 480-505-9271 > >> fax: 866-430-6107 > >> email:[email protected] > >> > >> http://www.mfpdesign.com > >> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > >> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >> ler.org _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >> ler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
