Bruce, hence why when New Jersey adopted the 2015 IBC we amended to delete the 1500 sf threshold for windowless basement sprinklers. If its windowless it gets suppressed.
As a line firefighter had a situation early in my career at a clothing store. Basement fire, first two firefighters advance a landline down the only stair. The basement is heavily involved. They loose their way and myself and another firefighter are sent in after them. Almost to the bottom of the stair conditions worsen and we are rapidly forced back up the stair knowing our brethren are below. Fortunately for them there was a bilco door that exterior firefighters heard them banging on, pak alarms sounding. We got out. Both of them as myself are now fire code officials. And most recently during Sandy we had a fire in the basement diesel generator room of a Verizon CO. In this case I was on the outside when I saw a firefighter on the roof frantically signalling pointing to the ground. As I approached I could hear banging. Looking down was a hatch to a large well with a set of doors. We descended to hear firefighters desperately banging trying to escape through a deadbolted security door. Using a cut off saw I cut bolt by bolt to get the door open. The doors eventually swung open and out fell 3-4 firefighters laden in diesel oil and soot, again pak alarms sounding. That's two memorable close calls, there are more. When we start talking about basements and fires I first ask those that want to negotiate this topic if they have ever been a firefighter, worn an airpak, AND been in a basement on fire. Once you have the notion of not fully sprinklering a basement is moot. John Drucker Assistant Construction Official Fire Protection Subcode Official [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cell/Text 732-904-6823 Bruce Verhei <[email protected]> wrote: Basement sprinklers, old buildings. Having your only escape route out of the basement be back up the stairs is not always comfortable. Can you imagine doing it in a pre-scba era? I'd much rather pump it up from the outside. Best Bruce > On Nov 6, 2015, at 11:31 AM, rongreenman . <[email protected]> wrote: > > There are a couple of old buildings in Seattle that I know of with basement > only systems and no automatic water supplies (although equipped with > regular sprinklers) that must be pumped. I wonder if that was a common > practice back in the later part of the nineteenth and early twentieth > centuries. If so I can see a requirement for a FDC. Today I wonder how > often FDs pump sprinkler systems when they could be using those resources > (hydrants and pumpers) for their hoses.And if never (or even seldom) that > then leads to the question of why do we still have FDCs for sprinkler > systems. There are probably many very good reasons I'm not considering, I > don't and never have humped hoses, but I don't see any. And if there is no > reason for an FDC (particularly on a building that could qualify as 13R) > then why else would we need to have pipe that withstands 175 psi working > pressure (discounting combination systems that don't regulate the sprinkler > tie in to 130 psi or less). Then I would think PEX without the FDC would > work in 13R. Rhetorical questions of course as the FDC is required. > >> On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Pete Schwab <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I am not aware of any Pex piping available for NFPA 13R. The Pex product >> cannot meet the 175 PSI requirement at higher temperatures. NFPA 13D allows >> 130 PSI at 120° which allows Pex. >> The only other plastic product listed (FM Approved) for fire protection >> that I am aware of is Aquatherm red pipe. >> >> http://www.aquatherm.com/aquatherm-red-pipe-polypropylene-sprinkler-piping >> >> >> Peter Schwab >> VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies >> >> Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. >> 222 Capitol Court >> Ocoee, Fl 34761 >> >> Mobile: (407) 468-8248 >> Direct: (407) 877-5570 >> Fax: (407) 656-8026 >> >> www.waynefire.com<http://www.waynefire.com> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Matt Grise >> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 10:30 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: pex for 13R >> >> Has anyone developed pex piping for 13R applications? Is anyone pursuing >> that? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II >> Sales Engineer >> Alliance Fire Protection >> 130 w 9th Ave. >> North Kansas City, MO 64116 >> >> *Licensed in KS & MO >> >> 913.888.0647 ph >> 913.888.0618 f >> 913.526.7443 cell >> www. AFPsprink.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
