Charles, True if the elevator car is within 12 inches of the head but, of course, not when it is any other position. Furthermore, what about the listing of the sidewall head for a flat, horizontal, smooth ceiling? This certainly does not describe the bottom of an elevator car.
*Success Through Code Compliance* *Rahe Loftin, PE * *Regional Fire Protection Engineer* *General Services Administration* *Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA* *Facilities Management & Support 7PMC* *c - 817-371-3102* *o - 817-978-7299* On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Charles Thurston <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Rahe, > > Works good when the car is at the bottom of the shaft. > > Friday, December 25, 2015, 7:11:21 AM, you wrote: > > > Sidewall heads without a wall is one thing, but what about sidewalls at > the > > bottom of elevator shafts that have a wall but no ceiling? > > > > > *Success Through Code Compliance* > > > *Rahe Loftin, PE * > > *Regional Fire Protection Engineer* > > *General Services Administration* > > *Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA* > > *Facilities Management & Support 7PMC* > > *c - 817-371-3102* > > *o - 817-978-7299* > > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Brad Casterline <[email protected] > > > > wrote: > > >> A few more things Sean then I'll be able to sleep- > >> 1) you're welcome > >> 2) you have put a lot of good thought into this, and thank you for > >> prompting the ponderance > >> 3) distinct sidewalls back-to-back in the middle of a space without a > >> baffle or beam to prevent cold soldering is a no go I realize now, but > with > >> a baffle or beam the head on the opposite side of the ignition point > might > >> not activate due to the way the ceiling jet hits the beam, goes under > it, > >> and comes back up the other side-- the opposite side spinkler, being > above > >> the bottom and close to the side of the beam leaves it in a "slow and > cold > >> pocket". > >> The best thing would be a Tyco type back to back attic head, (2 > sidewalls > >> with one element) but they would have to bend both deflectors up to work > >> with a flat ceiling :) unless the ceiling height was up there a ways. > >> 4) seems like you guys there at Aero are really on the ball!!!-- prime > >> candidates for some serious fire modeling. . . > > >> wbr, Brad > >> On Dec 22, 2015 5:05 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >> > *coarse. And an 18" deep draft stop is for containing smoke, not to > >> > enhance sprinkler activation, and, I apologise for not knowing how to > >> trim > >> > threads when at home using my phone. > >> > On Dec 22, 2015 4:48 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> No better subject to ramble on about than sprinkler activation. > >> >> I think citing sidewalls under an overhead door is misplaced though > >> >> because in that case there is an 'above AND below' setup, and whether > >> the > >> >> door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the > >> 'exposed > >> >> sidewall'. Not so with one compliment. > >> >> If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the space I > would > >> >> advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some > primitive, > >> >> course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation times > for > >> >> water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) slow > the > >> >> velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the pattern-- > RTI is > >> >> based on temp AND velocity. > >> >> > >> >> I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I skated a > >> >> little early today- > >> >> I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and post > the > >> >> link to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any real > life > >> >> application to using a sideWALL essentially with a 'wall' :) ;) :) > >> >> > >> >> B-rad > >> >> On Dec 22, 2015 11:54 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Thank you Richard and Brad. > >> >>> > >> >>> These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to this > >> >>> point we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane > >> brought up, > >> >>> we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be > >> >>> expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be > >> installed in > >> >>> "exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated > risks" > >> by > >> >>> the committee if no other testing has been done. > >> >>> > >> >>> Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector > >> >>> accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining > >> characteristics of > >> >>> this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As far > as > >> I > >> >>> know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I > am > >> going > >> >>> too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures > states > >> the > >> >>> following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall > >> sprinklers > >> >>> are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam". > >> Since > >> >>> they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper > operation, > >> can > >> >>> I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from > floor to > >> >>> ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing > from > >> (6) > >> >>> different routes, some of which could be considered "educated > guesses". > >> >>> First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next > (3) > >> have > >> >>> their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is > the > >> most > >> >>> preferred but probably won't be > >> >>> accepted. > >> >>> > >> >>> (1) Build a wall. > >> >>> (2) Install a beam. > >> >>> (3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall can be > >> >>> installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be sufficient. > >> Since > >> >>> the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space the > >> heads > >> >>> every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls. > >> >>> (4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since this > is > >> >>> acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response times, it > >> will > >> >>> clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to > operate. > >> This > >> >>> would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the > >> sprinklers. No > >> >>> apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing. > >> >>> (5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since this is > >> >>> acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to floor. > >> This > >> >>> would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart. > >> >>> (6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat trap, but > >> >>> rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the > >> definition for > >> >>> Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6" > >> high, be > >> >>> between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at least > >> even > >> >>> with the deflector. > >> >>> > >> >>> Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However do you > see > >> >>> any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"? > >> >>> > >> >>> I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time to > >> listen > >> >>> to me ramble on. > >> >>> > >> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> Sean VG > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >> >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > >> >>> Casterline > >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM > >> >>> To: [email protected] > >> >>> Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a > >> wall? > >> >>> > >> >>> Sean, I found this in the archives: > >> >>> ***** > >> >>> Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a > >> room > >> >>> (flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the > >> >>> sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit. > >> >>> > >> >>> In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away > from a > >> >>> wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed pendents > and > >> >>> uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" sidewalls > to > >> be > >> >>> installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed" > >> >>> sidewall be installed elsewhere? > >> >>> > >> >>> Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the > >> >>> sprinkler be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC > >> >>> responses from the committee that would help answer the question? > >> >>> > >> >>> Thoughts? > >> >>> > >> >>> Duane Johnson, PE > >> >>> Program Manager > >> >>> Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research > >> >>> Services National Institutes of Health > >> >>> 301-496-0487 > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Duane, > >> >>> > >> >>> NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and > >> >>> horizontal sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are projected > >> from. > >> >>> > >> >>> Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room as > a > >> >>> pendant. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Dale F. Wingard, SET > >> >>> Design Manager > >> >>> Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc. > >> >>> 251.649.2034 > >> >>> [email protected] > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> ******** > >> >>> Brad > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >> >>> [email protected]] > >> >>> On Behalf Of Richard Carr > >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM > >> >>> To: [email protected] > >> >>> Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a > >> wall? > >> >>> > >> >>> Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a > wall. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -------- Original message -------- > >> >>> From: [email protected] > >> >>> Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00) > >> >>> To: [email protected] > >> >>> Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? > >> >>> > >> >>> Hi All, > >> >>> > >> >>> I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't > >> >>> loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013. > >> >>> > >> >>> Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? > >> >>> > >> >>> Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements, > >> >>> vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray > >> sprinklers, > >> >>> ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking > from > >> >>> branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, > upright, > >> >>> sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With > >> >>> spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright > to > >> >>> backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to > sidewall > >> >>> face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable? > >> >>> > >> >>> The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to > >> >>> something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" > As of > >> >>> now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is > >> required, > >> >>> please help me find the direction in the code for this requirement > and > >> >>> design parameters. > >> >>> Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that > people > >> >>> can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for > "black > >> and > >> >>> white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly > >> >>> appreciated. > >> >>> > >> >>> Thank you for your time and help! > >> >>> > >> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> Sean VG > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> >>> [email protected] > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> >>> [email protected] > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> >>> [email protected] > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> >>> [email protected] > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> >>> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > -- > Best regards, > Charles mailto:[email protected] > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
