Not much interpretation there Brad. Sidewalls no more than two feet off the floor of all elevator pits. The annex says best under the door opening wall but to watch out to not interfere with the toe guard. Awfully clear. Then go to 8.15.5.2 and it sys you can ignore 8.15.5.1 if there is no hydraulic fluid. Again clear. Cable hoists nothing in the pit. Hydraulic elevators (presuming the the lifting mechanism is in the pit, which it always is) require them I could care less about listings or hazards classifications here. This is a unique space that is clearly addressed in the standard. Remember that since the standard went ISO their can be no lists of exceptions, only positive directions that say what you shall do, not what you don't have to do.
On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 2:44 AM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> wrote: > What does it say in your words Ron, for those like me whom are too sick > and/or tired to look it up? > On Dec 25, 2015 7:26 PM, "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Look in 13/2013 8.15.5.1. Specifically says to use a sidewall in an > > elevator pit. Commentary in the Handbook (p. 397) discusses the > > justification(s). > > > > On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Rahe Loftin - 7PMC <[email protected] > > > > wrote: > > > > > Charles, > > > True if the elevator car is within 12 inches of the head but, of > course, > > > not when it is any other position. Furthermore, what about the listing > of > > > the sidewall head for a flat, horizontal, smooth ceiling? This > certainly > > > does not describe the bottom of an elevator car. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Success Through Code Compliance* > > > > > > *Rahe Loftin, PE * > > > *Regional Fire Protection Engineer* > > > *General Services Administration* > > > *Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA* > > > *Facilities Management & Support 7PMC* > > > *c - 817-371-3102* > > > *o - 817-978-7299* > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 7:37 AM, Charles Thurston <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Rahe, > > > > > > > > Works good when the car is at the bottom of the shaft. > > > > > > > > Friday, December 25, 2015, 7:11:21 AM, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sidewall heads without a wall is one thing, but what about > sidewalls > > at > > > > the > > > > > bottom of elevator shafts that have a wall but no ceiling? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Success Through Code Compliance* > > > > > > > > > *Rahe Loftin, PE * > > > > > *Regional Fire Protection Engineer* > > > > > *General Services Administration* > > > > > *Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA* > > > > > *Facilities Management & Support 7PMC* > > > > > *c - 817-371-3102* > > > > > *o - 817-978-7299* > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Brad Casterline < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> A few more things Sean then I'll be able to sleep- > > > > >> 1) you're welcome > > > > >> 2) you have put a lot of good thought into this, and thank you for > > > > >> prompting the ponderance > > > > >> 3) distinct sidewalls back-to-back in the middle of a space > without > > a > > > > >> baffle or beam to prevent cold soldering is a no go I realize now, > > but > > > > with > > > > >> a baffle or beam the head on the opposite side of the ignition > point > > > > might > > > > >> not activate due to the way the ceiling jet hits the beam, goes > > under > > > > it, > > > > >> and comes back up the other side-- the opposite side spinkler, > being > > > > above > > > > >> the bottom and close to the side of the beam leaves it in a "slow > > and > > > > cold > > > > >> pocket". > > > > >> The best thing would be a Tyco type back to back attic head, (2 > > > > sidewalls > > > > >> with one element) but they would have to bend both deflectors up > to > > > work > > > > >> with a flat ceiling :) unless the ceiling height was up there a > > ways. > > > > >> 4) seems like you guys there at Aero are really on the ball!!!-- > > prime > > > > >> candidates for some serious fire modeling. . . > > > > > > > > >> wbr, Brad > > > > >> On Dec 22, 2015 5:05 PM, "Brad Casterline" < > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > *coarse. And an 18" deep draft stop is for containing smoke, not > > to > > > > >> > enhance sprinkler activation, and, I apologise for not knowing > how > > > to > > > > >> trim > > > > >> > threads when at home using my phone. > > > > >> > On Dec 22, 2015 4:48 PM, "Brad Casterline" < > > [email protected]> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >> No better subject to ramble on about than sprinkler activation. > > > > >> >> I think citing sidewalls under an overhead door is misplaced > > though > > > > >> >> because in that case there is an 'above AND below' setup, and > > > whether > > > > >> the > > > > >> >> door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under > the > > > > >> 'exposed > > > > >> >> sidewall'. Not so with one compliment. > > > > >> >> If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the > space > > I > > > > would > > > > >> >> advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some > > > > primitive, > > > > >> >> course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation > > times > > > > for > > > > >> >> water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) > > > slow > > > > the > > > > >> >> velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the > pattern-- > > > > RTI is > > > > >> >> based on temp AND velocity. > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I > > skated a > > > > >> >> little early today- > > > > >> >> I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and > > post > > > > the > > > > >> >> link to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any > real > > > > life > > > > >> >> application to using a sideWALL essentially with a 'wall' :) > ;) > > :) > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> B-rad > > > > >> >> On Dec 22, 2015 11:54 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> Thank you Richard and Brad. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up > to > > > this > > > > >> >>> point we had only used them under garage doors. But like > Duane > > > > >> brought up, > > > > >> >>> we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors > > and > > > be > > > > >> >>> expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be > > > > >> installed in > > > > >> >>> "exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated > > > > risks" > > > > >> by > > > > >> >>> the committee if no other testing has been done. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the > deflector > > > > >> >>> accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining > > > > >> characteristics of > > > > >> >>> this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? > As > > > far > > > > as > > > > >> I > > > > >> >>> know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and > > think I > > > > am > > > > >> going > > > > >> >>> too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures > > > > states > > > > >> the > > > > >> >>> following in one of their product listings "Horizontal > sidewall > > > > >> sprinklers > > > > >> >>> are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a > > beam". > > > > >> Since > > > > >> >>> they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper > > > > operation, > > > > >> can > > > > >> >>> I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from > > > > floor to > > > > >> >>> ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone > > arguing > > > > from > > > > >> (6) > > > > >> >>> different routes, some of which could be considered "educated > > > > guesses". > > > > >> >>> First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, > > Next > > > > (3) > > > > >> have > > > > >> >>> their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) > > is > > > > the > > > > >> most > > > > >> >>> preferred but probably won't be > > > > >> >>> accepted. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> (1) Build a wall. > > > > >> >>> (2) Install a beam. > > > > >> >>> (3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall > > can > > > be > > > > >> >>> installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be > > > sufficient. > > > > >> Since > > > > >> >>> the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, > space > > > the > > > > >> heads > > > > >> >>> every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls. > > > > >> >>> (4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since > > > this > > > > is > > > > >> >>> acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response > times, > > > it > > > > >> will > > > > >> >>> clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to > > > > operate. > > > > >> This > > > > >> >>> would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the > > > > >> sprinklers. No > > > > >> >>> apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing. > > > > >> >>> (5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since > this > > is > > > > >> >>> acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to > > floor. > > > > >> This > > > > >> >>> would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart. > > > > >> >>> (6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat > trap, > > > but > > > > >> >>> rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the > > > > >> definition for > > > > >> >>> Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, > > 6" > > > > >> high, be > > > > >> >>> between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at > > > least > > > > >> even > > > > >> >>> with the deflector. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However > do > > > you > > > > see > > > > >> >>> any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time > > to > > > > >> listen > > > > >> >>> to me ramble on. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Thanks, > > > > >> >>> Sean VG > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > > > >> >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Brad > > > > >> >>> Casterline > > > > >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM > > > > >> >>> To: [email protected] > > > > >> >>> Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next > > to a > > > > >> wall? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Sean, I found this in the archives: > > > > >> >>> ***** > > > > >> >>> Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center > > of > > > a > > > > >> room > > > > >> >>> (flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind > > the > > > > >> >>> sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or > soffit. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling > (away > > > > from a > > > > >> >>> wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed > > > pendents > > > > and > > > > >> >>> uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" > > > sidewalls > > > > to > > > > >> be > > > > >> >>> installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an > > "exposed" > > > > >> >>> sidewall be installed elsewhere? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires > the > > > > >> >>> sprinkler be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any > > ROP/ROC > > > > >> >>> responses from the committee that would help answer the > > question? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Thoughts? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Duane Johnson, PE > > > > >> >>> Program Manager > > > > >> >>> Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of > > > Research > > > > >> >>> Services National Institutes of Health > > > > >> >>> 301-496-0487 > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Duane, > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and > > > > >> >>> horizontal sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are > > > projected > > > > >> from. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a > room > > > as > > > > a > > > > >> >>> pendant. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Dale F. Wingard, SET > > > > >> >>> Design Manager > > > > >> >>> Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc. > > > > >> >>> 251.649.2034 > > > > >> >>> [email protected] > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> ******** > > > > >> >>> Brad > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > > > >> >>> [email protected]] > > > > >> >>> On Behalf Of Richard Carr > > > > >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM > > > > >> >>> To: [email protected] > > > > >> >>> Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next > > to a > > > > >> wall? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable > without > > a > > > > wall. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> -------- Original message -------- > > > > >> >>> From: [email protected] > > > > >> >>> Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00) > > > > >> >>> To: [email protected] > > > > >> >>> Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a > > > wall? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Hi All, > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> I can't check the forum archives right now because the website > > > isn't > > > > >> >>> loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing > > requirements, > > > > >> >>> vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray > > > > >> sprinklers, > > > > >> >>> ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. > Walking > > > > from > > > > >> >>> branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, > > > > upright, > > > > >> >>> sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. > > > With > > > > >> >>> spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from > > > upright > > > > to > > > > >> >>> backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to > > > > sidewall > > > > >> >>> face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next > to > > > > >> >>> something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a > soffit?" > > > > As of > > > > >> >>> now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something > is > > > > >> required, > > > > >> >>> please help me find the direction in the code for this > > requirement > > > > and > > > > >> >>> design parameters. > > > > >> >>> Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area > that > > > > people > > > > >> >>> can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking > for > > > > "black > > > > >> and > > > > >> >>> white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are > > > greatly > > > > >> >>> appreciated. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Thank you for your time and help! > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Thanks, > > > > >> >>> Sean VG > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > >> >>> [email protected] > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > >> >>> [email protected] > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > >> >>> [email protected] > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > >> >>> [email protected] > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > >> [email protected] > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > > > Charles mailto:[email protected] > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > Instructor > > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > > Bates Technical College > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > 253.680.7346 > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > Member: > > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, > > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
