Gregg...I agree...the rules regarding this type of conversion should be more
flexible.
Admittedly...there is much more science involved in our craft and trade than
most others...but we need to understand that we are dealing with a public that
still thinks "They all go off at the same time". It's kinda tough to explain to
a client that his Fire Sprinkler System is much too advanced to satisfy his
current needs and therefore needs to be "down sized" LOL. John W. Farabee,
On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 5:18 PM, Gregg Fontes <[email protected]>
wrote:
#yiv1092598389 #yiv1092598389 -- _filtered #yiv1092598389
{font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1092598389
{panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1092598389
{font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1092598389
{font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv1092598389
#yiv1092598389 p.yiv1092598389MsoNormal, #yiv1092598389
li.yiv1092598389MsoNormal, #yiv1092598389 div.yiv1092598389MsoNormal
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1092598389 a:link,
#yiv1092598389 span.yiv1092598389MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1092598389 a:visited, #yiv1092598389
span.yiv1092598389MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1092598389
p.yiv1092598389MsoAcetate, #yiv1092598389 li.yiv1092598389MsoAcetate,
#yiv1092598389 div.yiv1092598389MsoAcetate
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;}#yiv1092598389
span.yiv1092598389BalloonTextChar {}#yiv1092598389 p.yiv1092598389msonormal,
#yiv1092598389 li.yiv1092598389msonormal, #yiv1092598389
div.yiv1092598389msonormal
{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1092598389
p.yiv1092598389msochpdefault, #yiv1092598389 li.yiv1092598389msochpdefault,
#yiv1092598389 div.yiv1092598389msochpdefault
{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1092598389
p.yiv1092598389msonormal1, #yiv1092598389 li.yiv1092598389msonormal1,
#yiv1092598389 div.yiv1092598389msonormal1
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv1092598389
p.yiv1092598389msochpdefault1, #yiv1092598389 li.yiv1092598389msochpdefault1,
#yiv1092598389 div.yiv1092598389msochpdefault1
{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv1092598389
span.yiv1092598389msohyperlink {}#yiv1092598389
span.yiv1092598389msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv1092598389
span.yiv1092598389emailstyle18 {}#yiv1092598389 span.yiv1092598389msohyperlink1
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1092598389
span.yiv1092598389msohyperlinkfollowed1
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1092598389
span.yiv1092598389emailstyle181
{color:black;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none
none;}#yiv1092598389 span.yiv1092598389EmailStyle29
{color:#1F497D;}#yiv1092598389 span.yiv1092598389EmailStyle30
{color:#1F497D;}#yiv1092598389 span.yiv1092598389EmailStyle31
{color:black;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none
none;}#yiv1092598389 .yiv1092598389MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered
#yiv1092598389 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv1092598389
div.yiv1092598389WordSection1 {}#yiv1092598389 Thanks for the responses.
However I spoke to the Fire Sprinkler Guru and yes at this time you must follow
the obstruction rule for the ESFR sprinkler. Hopefully in the future there
will be some adjustment in the standard for the light & ordinary use, but not
as of yet. So for now, if the tenant puts in a 25” duct or 2’ x 4’ light
fixture, you either drop an ESFR sprinkler underneath or remove the ESFR system
and install conventional. I think almost everyone agrees that the ESFR system
would control the light or ordinary hazard, but the book is the book at this
time. Thanks, Gregg Fontes Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc. 209-334-9119 From:
Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 1:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: ESFR - Ordinary Hazard I don’t think Gregg is worried about the
first 36” below sprinkler for spray pattern development. I think he is
probably more concerned with the rules stating obstructions X wide need to be
located Y distance horizontally from sprinkler. When a new tenant comes in,
they like to run their new lights and ducts all over the place without a care
in the world and a box checker comes in and says an ESFR sprinkler is
obstructed even though the new light/duct is more than 10ft below the sprinkler
and is only 30” wide (not a problem for CMDA sprinklers). My personal
opinion is if you follow the obstruction rules so the pattern can fully develop
(aka first 36”). Then the other obstruction rules for ESFR shouldn’t apply in
a light/ordinary hazard occupancy. With the exception that if the obstruction
is over 4ft wide then sprinklers need to be under them. However, I do not
believe this stance is explicitly stated in NFPA 13. But can any sane
person really argue that a sprinkler that will dump more than 100gpm can’t
“control” an OH fire where the CMDA sprinklers that max out at 23gpm can. I’ve
heard the naysayers argument, “ESFR is 12 sprinklers over 1200sq.ft which is a
fast response sprinkler over a smaller area to quickly extinguish a fire”.
Okay then, my argument is I am installing large K-factor sprinklers 25K@7psi.
I will calculate 5 per line (50ft > 46.5ft) over 3 lines (1500 sq.ft.). I will
still flow less water than the original ESFR system was designed for and have a
remote area equal to what is now required by LH/OH CMDA sprinkler design. Plus
I am also putting at least 4x the amount of water on a fire to “control” it.
That 30” duct doesn’t seem to be much of an issue to me anymore. Like I said
before, my opinion only. I am only on the committee for “NFPA ? - Wondering
Why This Wasn’t Implemented When The Allowance For The Other Associated Issue
Was”.
| Thanks, Sean VG | | |
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Matthew J
Willis
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 11:17 AM
To: 321; [email protected]
Subject: RE: ESFR - Ordinary Hazard Especially since Chapter 8 and rules are
divided by the Sprinkler Type, not hazard. R/ Matt From:
Sprinklerforum[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf
Of 321
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: ESFR - Ordinary Hazard I would think that the obstruction rules
of NFPA 13 Ch 8 would apply to the ESFR (i.e. 36" clear below deflector)
regardless of the hazard. ESFR's were developed and listed by U.L. with
additional room below the head to allow for the "Discharge Umbrella" to
develop. Just my opinion... John W. Farabee, On Wednesday, August 31,
2016 1:37 PM, Gregg Fontes <[email protected]> wrote: 2016 NFPA 13 –
8.4.6.6 Occupancy and Hazard. (Handbook) In an existing warehouse building
being converted to a non-storage use, the existing ESFR sprinklers can remain
in place provided the new use is either light or ordinary hazard. My questions
is if it is ordinary hazard occupancy, do the ESFR obstruction rule apply or
due the obstruction rules for standard systems apply (i.e. conventional)? As
an example, would 30” x 48” lights be allowed to hang below the ESFR sprinkler
and not be considered an obstruction? Same with new duct work greater than
24”? Etc. Thanks, Gregg Fontes Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc. 209-334-9119
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
