Kyle, I agree with you outright and have had some debates about the wording myself. I think the intent is clear but the phrase "open on one side" is what hangs people up. If you have an office along the entire exterior wall of a warehouse, you apply the 0.6 the design area. If the office is smaller and only runs down half of the exterior wall, it is now open on two sides and the rule no longer applies? It doesn't make sense to me. (I think Cecil and I had this discussion once.) The idea is that you don't have to entirely protect an area that isn't accessible. This happened in a building we retrofitted. There was so much HVAC and ceiling wire above the office we couldn't get a boom lift back there. I talked about it with the AHJ and he agreed that it wasn't practical to try and extend the protection over the entire office where there was clearly no option for storage. We applied the 0.6 extension from two sides.
I've seen your scenario in a school I did where they didn't put a ceiling in a janitor's closet. Now how far am I supposed to extend protection in an otherwise non-combustible concealed space not requiring sprinklers because the ceiling wasn't installed in a little closet? (The plans called for a ceiling and to save a dime they decided not to install it. When I told them that would be a change order, they went back and installed it.) All of this should only apply to non-combustible areas. If wood framing gets involved, then I think you have to find a way to protect it. Nick Maneen, SET c 704.791.7789 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 11:32 AM To: [email protected] Cc: 'Cecil Bilbo'; 'Pete Schwab' Subject: RE: NFPA 13 8.15.23 Spaces above ceilings 2016ed It's kind of a gray area, but I'm going to politely disagree with my friend Travis and say that you can apply 8.15.23.3 and extend sprinkler coverage at the deck only 0.6 times the design area past the room with no ceiling. The trick is the wording. It's written as though the space with the ceiling is the small space and the space without the ceiling is the large space. So, if you had a small room with the ceiling that was an "island" in the middle of a warehouse, for example, you could not apply this rule because it is open to an adjacent sprinklered space on all sides. That's the opposite of what you have. You've got a situation where the space above the drop ceiling isn't open to an adjacent sprinklered space on only one side, it's open to the adjacent sprinklered space IN THE MIDDLE. Someone could make the argument that this condition doesn't match the description so you can't apply it, and that could be a strong argument. But I would say that if you look at the intention of the rule, which is based on the fire not extending more than half the design area into the area above the ceiling, I can't see a good argument that says if you extend your coverage the minimum distance out from your room that you haven't met the intention of the rule. Fellows, please feel free to shoot some holes in my theory. Kyle Montgomery cid:[email protected] Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Ave. Phoenix, AZ 85024 Direct: 623.580.7820 Cell: 602.763.4736 <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of JD Gamble Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 5:39 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: 'Cecil Bilbo' <[email protected]>; 'Pete Schwab' <[email protected]> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: NFPA 13 8.15.23 Spaces above ceilings 2016ed Travis you are correct in your mental image of the room. We have three locations that have come into question. One does only have one communicating wall but the others have multiple. It's my impression as well that without the full height walls, we have to add coverage. Get Outlook for iOS <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aka.ms_o0ukef&d=DwMF-g &c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=eg hgkfsX9abLYXeIrpwuoTYvdheDNXuDJORls3qcspo&s=2BqpXVsmVXyFyZ8Zb6f0fp_85JWt2YD4 y-aVWcmjmek&e=> _____ From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> on behalf of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 6:36 PM To: [email protected] Cc: 'Cecil Bilbo'; 'Pete Schwab' Subject: RE: NFPA 13 8.15.23 Spaces above ceilings 2016ed I'm not sure I get your total picture, but I'll try. First, we start with sprinklers in all spaces. Then we can ask if we can omit in places. The section you quote is only applicable if it is open on one side, like figure A.15.23.3. If your IT room is the space in question and you have it open to rooms around it, then your don't meet the criteria of open on only one side. Based on very limited idea of what you have on your project, I tend to think sprinklers would be required above the areas adjacent to the IT room. But I am envisioning the IT room as an island surrounded by rooms on all sides, or at least more than one side. <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com_&d=Dw MF-g&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A& m=eghgkfsX9abLYXeIrpwuoTYvdheDNXuDJORls3qcspo&s=Hz3noah6lgQGs0WfbQ50ySTEV5UO SJw9Co4ojCpIFOQ&e=> MFP_logo_F Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] www.mfpdesign.com Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On Behalf Of JD Gamble Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 5:31 PM To: [email protected] Cc: 'Cecil Bilbo' <[email protected]>; Pete Schwab <[email protected]> Subject: NFPA 13 8.15.23 Spaces above ceilings 2016ed Can anyone explain how this section would NOT apply to the following situation. IT Room, open to deck, walls do not go full height. Rooms around the IT room are non/limited combustible above with hardlids below. Currently no sprinklers installed above the ceilings where spaces communicate with the IT rooms open walls. (we are in the argument about it, State isn't much help). Have I applied this section in error requiring sprinklers above the hardlids because the walls are not full height based on 8.15.23? JD Gamble LSS of Sheridan Inc.
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