Hey guys that wasn't private. Just a heads up On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 4:30 PM Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum < [email protected]> wrote:
> That would definitely get more water to a building... provide jobs and > toilets for the homeless... > > I'm recruiting at a career fair right now. Despite low unemployment, there > are a large number of older people here looking for a job. I'll give them > your info too... I'm sure they wouldn't mind flushing toilets in sunny > California ;) > > I hope all is well with you, buddy! > > > -Skyler > > > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 3:12 PM Parsley Consulting via Sprinklerforum < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Maybe we could hire a bunch of homeless people to run through a building >> and flush all the toilets at the same time. Sort of a man made undertow? >> >> Just thinking... >> >> *Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting* >> >> >> >> * 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/350+West+9th+Avenue,+Suite+206+%0D%0A+++++++++++++Escondido,+California+92025?entry=gmail&source=g> >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/350+West+9th+Avenue,+Suite+206+%0D%0A+++++++++++++Escondido,+California+92025?entry=gmail&source=g>Escondido, >> California 92025 >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/350+West+9th+Avenue,+Suite+206+%0D%0A+++++++++++++Escondido,+California+92025?entry=gmail&source=g> >> Phone 760-745-6181 Visit the website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> * >> On 09/10/2019 12:51 PM, Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum wrote: >> >> I think it is worth pointing out that the way our table reads in 13R, and >> the way that the plumbing code sizes piping, uses fixture units to convert >> to flow, which do not convert linearly. For example, if we had a building >> with 100 fixture units, we would plug in a domestic demand of 45 GPM and >> for a building with 1000 fixture units we would plug in a domestic >> demand of 200 GPM (NOT 450 GPM). I believe this is done to account for the >> fact that not all of the domestic fixtures are running at once. >> >> Back to the original question, here's what I would do (for what it is >> worth). Figure the domestic demand using the table for the new building >> and add it at the point of connection. Then add together the fixture units >> for both buildings, find the GPM value in the table, then deduct the GPM >> that I already added for the new building. I would plug that GPM in for >> domestic demand for the existing building at the point of connection. >> >> When multiple buildings are connected to the same, small, dead end main, >> there can be a very real pressure drop due to domestic water usage (that's >> why we go through this excersize in the first place). It's good to remember >> that this isn't all theoretical. If something were to happen, I wouldn't >> want it on my conscience that I purposefully didn't account for something >> that I knew could be a real issue. If the water main is too small, then the >> water main is too small. >> >> Also, I think it is worth mentioning that this may lead to a situation we >> see all of the time with RPZ backflow preventers. When the pressure >> fluctuates on the inlet side of the RPZ (in this case because of the >> domestic demand), the relief will spray/dump and you will have a very angry >> owner with water everywhere. If you are using a RPZ, put a check valve in >> before the backflow to prevent this from ever happening. It is likely that >> no one will know the disaster that would have been, except you. If the >> backflow is a double check, this is not an issue. >> >> >> Skyler Bilbo >> Wente Plumbing and Fire Protection >> 1700 S. Raney Street >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1700+S.+Raney+Street+%0D%0A+++++++++++++Effingham,+IL+62401?entry=gmail&source=g> >> Effingham, IL 62401 >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1700+S.+Raney+Street+%0D%0A+++++++++++++Effingham,+IL+62401?entry=gmail&source=g> >> >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1700+S.+Raney+Street+%0D%0A+++++++++++++Effingham,+IL+62401?entry=gmail&source=g> >> 217-819-6404 Direct >> 217-347-7315 Fax >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 12:37 PM Pete Schwab via Sprinklerforum < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Steve >>> >>> Codes cannot cover 100% of the exact situations that we will encounter >>> in the real world. I submitted this proposal because we had Engineers and >>> AHJ’s requiring domestic demand being added for all buildings attached to a >>> site main. >>> >>> What is the likelihood of all the fixtures being used simultaneously >>> during a fire event? What is the impact of not calculating that other >>> building? 2-3 PSI? So we have a .047 Density verses a .05? Being 13R we are >>> probably calculating a 4 sprinkler design whereas the UL 1626 test is 2 >>> sprinklers? The first operating sprinkler opens with the full available >>> pressure verses the listing? I think we are picking the fly $h!t out of the >>> pepper here…… >>> >>> Just my opinion as a member of the Residential Committee and not that of >>> the NFPA. >>> >>> Pete >>> >>> >>> >>> Peter Schwab >>> >>> VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies >>> >>> >>> >>> Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. >>> >>> 222 Capitol Court >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/222%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Capitol+Court+%0D%0A+++++++++++++++++++Ocoee,%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Fl+34761?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/222%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Capitol+Court+%0D%0A+++++++++++++++++++Ocoee,%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Fl+34761?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> Ocoee, Fl 34761 >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/222%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Capitol+Court+%0D%0A+++++++++++++++++++Ocoee,%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Fl+34761?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Mobile: (407) 468-8248* >>> >>> Direct: (407) 877-5570 >>> >>> Fax: (407) 656-8026 >>> >>> >>> >>> www.waynefire.com >>> >>> >>> >>> [image: cid:[email protected]] >>> >>> >>> >>> [image: WAYNE_40thAnniversary (1)] >>> >>> >>> >>> *I sleep in a sprinklered home, do you? * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Steve Leyton <[email protected]> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 10, 2019 11:14 AM >>> *To:* Pete Schwab <[email protected]>; >>> [email protected] >>> *Cc:* J H <[email protected]> >>> *Subject:* RE: 13R Fixture Units for Multiple Buildings >>> >>> >>> >>> Hey Pete: >>> >>> I do not recall the discussion specifically, but our intent was to not >>> have to put in an 8” main because of the plumbing unit values in 13R and >>> what the non-fire allowance would look like if you have 30 buildings on >>> site using a common water supply. The point of adding domestic allowance >>> is to pad the water supply for non-fire uses. It is counterintuitive to >>> ignore the potential concurrent domestic and irrigation flows that could >>> impact the fire sprinkler system water supply and in this case we should >>> consider intent, which is to assure that the portion of the site piping >>> that serves both buildings can accommodate all fire and non-fire flows. In >>> this example the calculation is being done on a satellite, not the main >>> building on the parcel. >>> >>> >>> >>> SML >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Pete Schwab [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 10, 2019 5:10 AMth >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Cc:* Steve Leyton; J H >>> *Subject:* RE: 13R Fixture Units for Multiple Buildings >>> >>> >>> >>> I disagree with Steve on this one >>> >>> In my opinion, the intent is to only add domestic demand for *the >>> building being calculated* regardless of the underground/feed >>> arrangement. >>> >>> If there is another “building” connected to the underground, that >>> domestic demand does not need to be added. >>> >>> Below is the ROP from when this language was added (2013 edition). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Peter Schwab >>> >>> VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies >>> >>> >>> >>> Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. >>> >>> 222 Capitol Court >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/222%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Capitol+Court+%0D%0A+++++++++++++++++++Ocoee,%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Fl+34761?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/222%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Capitol+Court+%0D%0A+++++++++++++++++++Ocoee,%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Fl+34761?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> Ocoee, Fl 34761 >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/222%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Capitol+Court+%0D%0A+++++++++++++++++++Ocoee,%0D%0A++++++++++++++++++++++Fl+34761?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Mobile: (407) 468-8248* >>> >>> Direct: (407) 877-5570 >>> >>> Fax: (407) 656-8026 >>> >>> >>> >>> www.waynefire.com >>> >>> >>> >>> [image: cid:[email protected]] >>> >>> >>> >>> [image: WAYNE_40thAnniversary (1)] >>> >>> >>> >>> *I sleep in a sprinklered home, do you? * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> *On >>> Behalf Of *Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum >>> *Sent:* Monday, September 9, 2019 6:47 PM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Cc:* Steve Leyton <[email protected]>; J H < >>> [email protected]> >>> *Subject:* RE: 13R Fixture Units for Multiple Buildings >>> >>> >>> >>> I think “for the building being calculated” doesn’t take into account >>> the potential arrangement of a single water line supplying domestic and >>> fire protection to multiple buildings. If I was the AHJ, I would require >>> the fixture load allowance of both buildings to be added to the sprinkler >>> demand of the subject building for that portion of the piping that is >>> common to both buildings. So if you’re coming in from a meter to the main >>> building and call that Section A, then you have Section B going to the >>> Satellite building, I would calculate Satellite sprinkler demand + >>> Satellite domestic allowance in Section B, then at the point where the line >>> branches off to the main building I would add the Main building plumbing >>> allowance so that Section A includes Satellite sprinkler demand plus >>> Satellite domestic + Main Building domestic. >>> >>> I hope that makes sense. >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve L. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [ >>> mailto:[email protected] >>> <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *J H >>> via Sprinklerforum >>> *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2019 3:17 PM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Cc:* J H >>> *Subject:* 13R Fixture Units for Multiple Buildings >>> >>> >>> >>> I've got a Bed & Breakfast (sprinklered per 13R) that is building a >>> second detached suite which is to likewise be sprinklered to 13R. The >>> existing yard line supplies both the domestic and fire demands for the >>> existing building and the new building is planned to also tap into this >>> yard line. >>> >>> >>> >>> Question: In determining the fixture units for the new building would we >>> also have to account for the existing building's fixture units when >>> calculating back to the city tap? >>> >>> >>> >>> 13R states: "9.6* Domestic Demand Domestic demand for the building >>> being calculated shall be included as part of the overall system demand for >>> systems with common domestic/fire mains where no provisions are made to >>> prevent thedomestic waterflow upon sprinkler system activation." >>> >>> >>> >>> I think the keywords are "for the building being calculated" and we >>> would not have to account for anything else but I'm also thinking that if >>> the intent is to account for water losses due to domestic usage and we are >>> daisy chaining off of a relatively small, private, water line that it would >>> be wise to account for these losses. >>> >>> >>> >>> Any thoughts? >>> >>> >>> >>> JH >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing >> [email protected]http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Benjamin Young
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