We all understand where and how in NFPA 13 we arrive at determining water
supply demand for a Fire Sprinkler System. Fire Flow demand is determined from
other codes or standards. In our case the Republic of California has the
California Building and Fire Codes. NFPA 13 does not address the Fire Flow
requirement for a project only outside hose demand which is not the Fire Flow
requirement. In fact, NFPA 291 – “Recommended Practice for Fire Flow Testing
and Marking of Hydrants” the title is one of most miss leading publications
NFPA prints. It is a standard for taking a flow test from fire hydrants. It has
nothing to do with Fire Flow Testing or determining and calculating Fire Flow
requirements. You do not get a Fire Flow reading when you are taking a flow
test. You are simply measuring the amount of water flowing from a hydrant.
Gregg’s original question asked “If a fire pump supplies both the fire
sprinkler system and the site fire hydrants, does the fire pump GPM need to be
capable of suppling both”? Based on the question there would be an assumption
made that there is a water main suppling a fire pump which then supplies both
the fire sprinkler system and on-site hydrants. It could be a loop or dead-end
line it doesn’t matter. In NFPA 13 (2016 Edition) 11.1.5.3* Pumps shall be
sized to supply the equipment that they serve. I also believe we all have the
understanding that nowhere in code be that NFPA 13 or the Building Codes does
it state that a water supply must meet the Fire Sprinkler Demand and Fire Flow
Requirement simultaneously. In fact if I take my own bunny trail, Water
Storage tanks are sized based on Fire Sprinkler demand unless it also supplies
on-site fire hydrants. The water demand for on-site fire hydrants is based on
the Fire Flow requirement for the project. We are not required to size a tank
based on combining the water demand of the Fire Sprinkler System with the water
demand for the Fire Flow requirement. Simply the greater of the two or what is
required by the AHJ.
Back to Gregg’s question – “If a fire pump supplies both the fire sprinkler
system and the site fire hydrants, does the fire pump GPM need to be capable of
suppling both? (Fire sprinkler demand 900 GPM and site fire hydrant demand
2000 GPM for a total of 2,900 GPM.
Where in code does it give us the guidance and direction? Since NFPA 13 does
not address a Fire Flow Requirement only outside Hose allowances is section
11.1.5.3* even applicable? If it is applicable, does it imply simultaneously or
independent of each other? Or after all of this is this simply up to the local
AHJ?
Byron Weisz
Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc.
P.O. Box 1284
Lodi, CA 95241
Phone (209) 334-9119
Fax (209) 334-2923
[email protected]
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-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On Behalf
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 9:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Steve Leyton <[email protected]>; Gregg Fontes
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
Let's change the context to a similar demand scenario where a wet-manual
combined standpipe/sprinkler system requires a pump to meet the sprinkler
demand. In that case, the pump can be sized for sprinklers only as the primary
water supply for the standpipe demand is pumped to the FDC. In this case,
you said that there is a bypass from city water around the pump: does the city
water supply meet the hydrant demand in this configuration? If yes, then you
do NOT have to size the pump for hydrant flow because the pump isn't the
primary water supply for the hydrants. They will over-perform if the pressure
in the discharge main drops during a hydrant flow scenario and the pump kicks
in because it will pressurize the line to its rating - this is a good thing.
But you do not have to size the pump for the hydrants if the primary (city)
water supply can meet the demand.
The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 13 and
24 Technical Committees, nor is intended to serve as an interpretation of the
standard.
Steve Leyton
Protection Design & Consulting
San Diego, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Gregg Fontes via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 7:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Gregg Fontes <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
So NFPA 13 11.1.5.3 does require the fire pump to be sized for the demand that
is on the discharge side of the fire pump regardless of whether it is site
demand or fire sprinkler demand or both. If the fire pump is supplying both a
2000 gpm site demand and 900 gpm fire sprinkler demand, the fire pump would
have to be a minimum of 2000 gpm. (2000 gpm x 150% + 3000 gpm). Correct?
My original question wasn't meant to determine if site and fire sprinkler
demands need to be added together. Just if a fire pump supplies both per NFPA
13 11.1.5.3, then fire pump gpm has to be able to meet both not just the
greater of the two.
Thanks,
Gregg Fontes
Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc.
209-334-9119
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On Behalf
Of Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 6:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Bob Caputo <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
Lots of great responses to this question, the best of which is that it is
really up to the local AHJ to determine what will be required. That said, in
the context of NFPA 13 (2016 edition) we should note two specific applicable
sections in consideration of the issue:
First, section 3.8.2.1.3 defines a private fire hydrant as a valved connection
on a water supply system having one or more outlets and that is used to supply
hose and fire department pumpers with water on private property. [24, 2013]
Second, and most important to the question is section 11.1.5.3* which requires
pumps shall be sized to supply the equipment that they serve.
The issue of fire flow is interesting and separate because it requires a volume
of water at 20 psi, based on the construction type and size of the building,
which can be reduced by 50% for a sprinklered building. The point is that the
fire pump cannot make water and can only provide pressure. If your volume is
not met, you’ll need a water storage tank and a pump. (Both of which are
required to be sized for the equipment they serve).
The private hydrant is likely required because the public hydrants on the
street are too far from the rear of the building for normal hose lays and the
friction loss per 100 ft of hose is about 29 psi. Some AHJ’s require that
hydrant to become public and piped separately from the sprinkler system, with a
dedicated easement but either way, the hydrant is for fire department use only,
and they bring a pump in the engine when they show up - so its more likely
you’d need to add a water storage tank if fire flow is the concern. Fire flow
is not a NFPA 13 issue but section 11.1.5.3 is.
Just adding my 2 cents...
Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p: 214-349-5965 ext124
w: firesprinkler.org <http://firesprinkler.org/>
<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
<https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
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<https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>
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> On Apr 21, 2021, at 11:51 AM, Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I've had at least one Official state (opinion) that the "Fire Flow" @ 20
> PSI" was never intended to be "provided to the site hydrants". It is simply a
> recommendation for the benefit of Fire Fighters using their pumpers and hoes
> to "preserve" 20 psi in the city water main for all the obvious reasons. Ive
> also has fire fighters tell me that if they know its only a structure fire,
> (no occupants) they will not pull their suction pressure down below 20 psi.
> However, if there are known lives at stake, they will go negative on the
> suction pressure if they feel its necessary.
> Mark at Aero
> 602 820-7894
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of
> Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 9:12 AM
> To: [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Cc: Ron Greenman <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
>
> Consider that if the building was not there and you could meet the required
> CFC fireflow for the site you'd be done, just as you would for any land
> development project, municipal or private. No pump necessary. Then you
> reference 13 as the place with the sticky wicket paragraph about everything
> after the pump. Remember that 13 addresses sprinkler systems and associated
> hose allowances and if your site system could handle both of those without a
> pump you'd also be done. Since you apparently need a pump to meet 13
> requirements I'd say your pump needs to be sized for the sprinkler and
> associated hose stream allowance from 13 only. But then who the hell am I?
> As Craig said, check with the approving authority. And as a bit of learned
> advice, didn't ask for a solution but rather give that person your read of
> the rules and how you got there, and then ask if that's how they see it.
> Your job is to come up with the solution and theirs is to yay or nay it.
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:40 AM Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> You do not have to prove building system demand and site fire flow
>> concurrently. Hard stop.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve Leyton
>>
>> (Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text
>> corruptions.)
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Gregg Fontes via Sprinklerforum <
>> [email protected]>
>> Date: 4/21/21 7:47 AM (GMT-08:00)
>> To: "Prahl, Craig/GVL" <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected]
>> Cc: Gregg Fontes <[email protected]>
>> Subject: RE: Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
>>
>> Yes. But our is CFC Section 507. What I am trying to understand is
>> NFPA
>> 13 2016 Edition 11.1.5.3 & A.11.1.5.3 "Where pumps serve some
>> combination of sprinklers, inside hose stations or outside hose
>> stations, the pump needs to be capable of providing the flow of the
>> equipment that is fed from the pump." The fire pump would be size
>> for the fire sprinkler and any NFPA
>> 13 inside and/or outside hose demands, but does it also have to be
>> size for the 2000 gpm fire flow demand since 11.1.5.3 & A.11.1.5.3
>> states pump needs to be capable of providing flow that is fed from the pump?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Gregg Fontes
>> Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc.
>> 209-334-9119
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:09 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Cc: Gregg Fontes <[email protected]>
>> Subject: RE: Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
>>
>> Are site Fire Flow requirements (IFC Section 507) what you're
>> referring to as "hydrant demand"?
>>
>> At minimum, the pump should be capable of flowing the sprinkler and
>> related hose stream allowance flow rate combined.
>>
>> BUT, when there have been no municipal hydrants to be used for the
>> actual firefighting effort, we've had to be capable of providing the
>> Fire Flow rate to area hydrants plus sprinkler demand via the site fire pump.
>>
>> I've also had AHJs say to only provide the sprinkler flow plus the
>> hose stream allowance via the site pump. So it really depends on the
>> AHJ as the Fire Flow requirement is stated in the code as being "by
>> an approved method" i.e., per the AHJ.
>>
>> Have you discussed this with the local fire code official yet?
>>
>> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection |
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> |
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com&d=DwICAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=Bvc6gwjRPtXRrBWRivuJXEDbZbl7DWhxyJ-YGNWOf9I&s=f97kvSM5Bb0nnp19jnsS1TLlRojQT1tCyd-lF5_VfK0&e=
>>
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com&d=DwICAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=Bvc6gwjRPtXRrBWRivuJXEDbZbl7DWhxyJ-YGNWOf9I&s=f97kvSM5Bb0nnp19jnsS1TLlRojQT1tCyd-lF5_VfK0&e=><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com&d=DwICAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=Bvc6gwjRPtXRrBWRivuJXEDbZbl7DWhxyJ-YGNWOf9I&s=f97kvSM5Bb0nnp19jnsS1TLlRojQT1tCyd-lF5_VfK0&e=
>>
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com&d=DwICAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=Bvc6gwjRPtXRrBWRivuJXEDbZbl7DWhxyJ-YGNWOf9I&s=f97kvSM5Bb0nnp19jnsS1TLlRojQT1tCyd-lF5_VfK0&e=>
>> >
>> 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606
>> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> On Behalf Of Gregg Fontes via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 9:57 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>> Cc: Gregg Fontes <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
>>
>> If a fire pump supplies both the fire sprinkler system and the site
>> fire hydrants, does the fire pump gpm need to be capable of suppling both?
>> (Fire sprinkler demand 900 gpm and site fire hydrant demand 2000 gpm
>> for a total of 2,900. Can the fire pump be size at 750 for the fire
>> sprinkler/hose demand or does it have to be a 2000 gpm so it can
>> supply both the sprinkler and site fire hydrant flows of 2900 gpm?)
>> The supply is city water and there is a bypass on the fire pump. The
>> city supply comes into the fire pump house and goes out to single
>> loop that supplies both the fire sprinkler systems and the site fire
>> hydrants. (The city flow and psi is adequate to meet the site fire
>> flow at 20-psi.)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Gregg Fontes
>>
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