Lots of great responses to this question, the best of which is that it is
really up to the local AHJ to determine what will be required. That said, in
the context of NFPA 13 (2016 edition) we should note two specific applicable
sections in consideration of the issue:
First, section 3.8.2.1.3 defines a private fire hydrant as a valved connection
on a water supply system having one or more outlets and that is used to supply
hose and fire department pumpers with water on private property. [24, 2013]
Second, and most important to the question is section 11.1.5.3* which requires
pumps shall be sized to supply the equipment that they serve.
The issue of fire flow is interesting and separate because it requires a volume
of water at 20 psi, based on the construction type and size of the building,
which can be reduced by 50% for a sprinklered building. The point is that the
fire pump cannot make water and can only provide pressure. If your volume is
not met, you’ll need a water storage tank and a pump. (Both of which are
required to be sized for the equipment they serve).
The private hydrant is likely required because the public hydrants on the
street are too far from the rear of the building for normal hose lays and the
friction loss per 100 ft of hose is about 29 psi. Some AHJ’s require that
hydrant to become public and piped separately from the sprinkler system, with a
dedicated easement but either way, the hydrant is for fire department use only,
and they bring a pump in the engine when they show up - so its more likely
you’d need to add a water storage tank if fire flow is the concern. Fire flow
is not a NFPA 13 issue but section 11.1.5.3 is.
Just adding my 2 cents...
Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p: 214-349-5965 ext124
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> On Apr 21, 2021, at 11:51 AM, Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I've had at least one Official state (opinion) that the "Fire Flow" @ 20
> PSI" was never intended to be "provided to the site hydrants". It is simply a
> recommendation for the benefit of Fire Fighters using their pumpers and hoes
> to "preserve" 20 psi in the city water main for all the obvious reasons. Ive
> also has fire fighters tell me that if they know its only a structure fire,
> (no occupants) they will not pull their suction pressure down below 20 psi.
> However, if there are known lives at stake, they will go negative on the
> suction pressure if they feel its necessary.
> Mark at Aero
> 602 820-7894
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Ron
> Greenman via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 9:12 AM
> To: [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> Cc: Ron Greenman <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
>
> Consider that if the building was not there and you could meet the required
> CFC fireflow for the site you'd be done, just as you would for any land
> development project, municipal or private. No pump necessary. Then you
> reference 13 as the place with the sticky wicket paragraph about everything
> after the pump. Remember that 13 addresses sprinkler systems and associated
> hose allowances and if your site system could handle both of those without a
> pump you'd also be done. Since you apparently need a pump to meet 13
> requirements I'd say your pump needs to be sized for the sprinkler and
> associated hose stream allowance from 13 only. But then who the hell am I?
> As Craig said, check with the approving authority. And as a bit of learned
> advice, didn't ask for a solution but rather give that person your read of
> the rules and how you got there, and then ask if that's how they see it.
> Your job is to come up with the solution and theirs is to yay or nay it.
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:40 AM Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> You do not have to prove building system demand and site fire flow
>> concurrently. Hard stop.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve Leyton
>>
>> (Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text
>> corruptions.)
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Gregg Fontes via Sprinklerforum <
>> [email protected]>
>> Date: 4/21/21 7:47 AM (GMT-08:00)
>> To: "Prahl, Craig/GVL" <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected]
>> Cc: Gregg Fontes <[email protected]>
>> Subject: RE: Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
>>
>> Yes. But our is CFC Section 507. What I am trying to understand is
>> NFPA
>> 13 2016 Edition 11.1.5.3 & A.11.1.5.3 "Where pumps serve some
>> combination of sprinklers, inside hose stations or outside hose
>> stations, the pump needs to be capable of providing the flow of the
>> equipment that is fed from the pump." The fire pump would be size for
>> the fire sprinkler and any NFPA
>> 13 inside and/or outside hose demands, but does it also have to be
>> size for the 2000 gpm fire flow demand since 11.1.5.3 & A.11.1.5.3
>> states pump needs to be capable of providing flow that is fed from the pump?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Gregg Fontes
>> Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc.
>> 209-334-9119
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:09 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Cc: Gregg Fontes <[email protected]>
>> Subject: RE: Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
>>
>> Are site Fire Flow requirements (IFC Section 507) what you're
>> referring to as "hydrant demand"?
>>
>> At minimum, the pump should be capable of flowing the sprinkler and
>> related hose stream allowance flow rate combined.
>>
>> BUT, when there have been no municipal hydrants to be used for the
>> actual firefighting effort, we've had to be capable of providing the
>> Fire Flow rate to area hydrants plus sprinkler demand via the site fire pump.
>>
>> I've also had AHJs say to only provide the sprinkler flow plus the
>> hose stream allowance via the site pump. So it really depends on the
>> AHJ as the Fire Flow requirement is stated in the code as being "by an
>> approved method" i.e., per the AHJ.
>>
>> Have you discussed this with the local fire code official yet?
>>
>> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection |
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> |
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com&d=DwICAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=Bvc6gwjRPtXRrBWRivuJXEDbZbl7DWhxyJ-YGNWOf9I&s=f97kvSM5Bb0nnp19jnsS1TLlRojQT1tCyd-lF5_VfK0&e=
>>
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com&d=DwICAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=Bvc6gwjRPtXRrBWRivuJXEDbZbl7DWhxyJ-YGNWOf9I&s=f97kvSM5Bb0nnp19jnsS1TLlRojQT1tCyd-lF5_VfK0&e=><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com&d=DwICAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=Bvc6gwjRPtXRrBWRivuJXEDbZbl7DWhxyJ-YGNWOf9I&s=f97kvSM5Bb0nnp19jnsS1TLlRojQT1tCyd-lF5_VfK0&e=
>>
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com&d=DwICAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=Bvc6gwjRPtXRrBWRivuJXEDbZbl7DWhxyJ-YGNWOf9I&s=f97kvSM5Bb0nnp19jnsS1TLlRojQT1tCyd-lF5_VfK0&e=>
>> >
>> 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606
>> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> On Behalf Of Gregg Fontes via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 9:57 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>> Cc: Gregg Fontes <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Fire Pump Sprk & Fire Flow Demand
>>
>> If a fire pump supplies both the fire sprinkler system and the site
>> fire hydrants, does the fire pump gpm need to be capable of suppling both?
>> (Fire sprinkler demand 900 gpm and site fire hydrant demand 2000 gpm
>> for a total of 2,900. Can the fire pump be size at 750 for the fire
>> sprinkler/hose demand or does it have to be a 2000 gpm so it can
>> supply both the sprinkler and site fire hydrant flows of 2900 gpm?)
>> The supply is city water and there is a bypass on the fire pump. The
>> city supply comes into the fire pump house and goes out to single loop
>> that supplies both the fire sprinkler systems and the site fire
>> hydrants. (The city flow and psi is adequate to meet the site fire
>> flow at 20-psi.)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Gregg Fontes
>>
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