This is a real problem, it is installed and during the fire pump test, it was discovered. This is a potable water system, so this is why the backflow. Yes, the idea to come off the discharge of the jockey pump to between a check valve and the backflow to pressure up the portion of the system to have enough pressure to initially open the backflow until the fire pump can get going to keep water moving. I just didn't want to try all these things if someone on the forum already did and failed. That is the beauty of all you smart people on here.
Best regards, *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* [image: Burtell Fire_Small] Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 Email: [email protected] Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.**”* *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner. Thank you. On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:30 AM Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum < [email protected]> wrote: > Joe, > > Is this a real problem or a theoretical problem? What I mean is, are you > still in the design phase or is it actually installed like this and causing > a problem? > > I could see there maybe being some trouble initially just getting all the > air out of the system. Maybe you could use a valved bypass around the > backflow just to prime everything. Or is there a small backflow preventer > with a lower opening pressure that you could run in parallel with the > larger one? > > But once the system is primed and full of water, that backflow is going to > open when the pump kicks on for sure. Maybe you have a negative gauge > pressure on the suction side for a split-second but is that enough to cause > a problem with the pump? Unlike a pool pump, there is no way for air to > enter the system if the pump pulls a vacuum, so I think the pump would just > pull the backflow open and you'd be on your merry way. > > If I'm wrong (and there's a pretty good chance of that), I'd appreciate a > lesson in the physics of how/why? > > -Kyle M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On > Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 5:44 AM > To: [email protected] > Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected]>; Matt Grise < > [email protected]> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Fire Pump Backflow > > I have doubts that the "engineer" has any clue what a jockey pump does or > how it works. > > So, you'd have a connection on the suction side of the fire pump that > typically connects back to the discharge side of the pump. Does the > engineer think you are going to take and route another connection off the > discharge of the jockey back to the inlet side of the BFP? > > Just think about this. > > I don't think I've yet seen why this BFP is part of this system? Is the > tank dual purpose, potable and fire? > > Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | > [email protected] | > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jacobs.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=88jST93e_Oe8-2XMNGySKXvF1erV-mY3sycrFA20UKA&s=yIn1a-3qh8lN41LbJVnadB5QFxk0vddC8nfYTKxTzJI&e= > 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 > CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On > Behalf Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 7:19 AM > To: [email protected] > Cc: Matt Grise <[email protected]> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Fire Pump Backflow > > For the jockey piping - I wonder if the engineer meant to say that you > could pressurize the portion of the piping between the backflow preventer > and the fire pump with the jockey pump. Maybe have an additional check > valve after the BFP, but before the pump. Then when the pump first > activates, there would be a certain amount of water present in the impeller > with positive pressure to 'get things moving'. It seems like an interesting > idea, but I don't know if it would actually help or not (I have never > tried/heard of anything similar). > > I don't suppose the school has the budget for a break tank? > > Matt > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On > Behalf Of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 8:09 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: Skyler Bilbo <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Fire Pump Backflow > > I never had this problem before, but it looks like a Deringer 20 backflow > has lower opening pressures. You may also consider something like several > smaller Watts 2000B-FP in parallel, depending on the flows you need. > > I don't think piping the jockey differently would help, but let me know if > you get a good explanation on that one. > > > > Skyler Bilbo > > 1700 S. Raney Street > Effingham, IL 62401 > 217-819-6404 Direct > 217-347-7315 Fax > > [email protected] > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fwww.wenteplumbing.com&c=E,1,h2okMwFsjIDCQhmya-Kx06mz3tFZupKU7w05xn3QZHOB0--IU_VdrTM1lonijtBzoi9cjzdvmsUyOm6BPXv89zxI0Sy1rmwwqd6UERe8cHOeY704KFPtZmmvJLg,&typo=1__;JSUl!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TTHVu3P9zPjyVb6NpB9AS2V987_FU3EZOWFLItv8uvHaNSNBZHRy6nVpsyIJdgSJ_g$ > > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 6:19 PM Jamie Seidl via Sprinklerforum < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > What is your site elevation AMSL? Have you tried to operate the pump > yet? > > While we typically don't run pumps below 0 psi, it can be done by > > figuring in by also accounting for air pressure. While not > > recommended, as long as you are not cavitating the impeller, the system > should work. > > I had a similar situation on an alternate water supply (seismic) > > ground level pool surface that was roughly 1' below the pump inlet. We > > discussed it with an engineer, and he said we could figure on > > approximately 14 psi of additional pressure (PSIA) acting on the > > surface of the pool. When we tested it, it worked without a hitch. > > Once you pass the opening spring pressure, BFP's typically drop in > > loss to a point. PSIA may give you enough pressure to make the system > work. > > I've used this principal on subsequent projects where site conditions > > didn't allow for positive pressure on inlets. > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http > > s*3a*2f*2fkimray.com*2ftrain__;JSUlJQ!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TTHVu3P9zPjyVb6N > > pB9AS2V987_FU3EZOWFLItv8uvHaNSNBZHRy6nVpsyJdhKSSuQ$ > > ing%2fpsia-vs-psig-whats-difference&c=E,1,1F4X6eSJbL6wWFwR4iXZRTYNAiR7 > > HF08Yy5JnLooBVZA57cbQmgLJwq64vjS1eFxGteVWO42Z-0h1HnLUCwn1YZ09gVFjllwZH > > gzhwiVkHoYuomKVSLvcw8,&typo=1 > > Jamie Seidl > > > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:25 PM Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Yes, we have pottable water being taken from the same tanks. This is > > > a rural high school and this is their own water system that feeds > > > the > > school. > > > So I need the backflow for that reason. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* > > > > > > [image: Burtell Fire_Small] > > > > > > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* > > > > > > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 > > > > > > Email: [email protected] > > > > > > Web Site: > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=ht > > > tp*3a*2f*2fwww.burtellfire.c__;JSUl!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TTHVu3P9zPjyVb6N > > > pB9AS2V987_FU3EZOWFLItv8uvHaNSNBZHRy6nVpsyJKYIzM1Q$ > > > om&c=E,1,pJTgzEU_XFuYlvmpK9o1iCkZypABzB5IoHk4OjCOEBIFUd5Kd7miOas9TZo > > > Q49uebildsyzmQwps1LkQanSB6JH52W2b0TlXfuspQ_4TVeeFMQ,,&typo=1 > > > > > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness > > > of > > low > > > price is forgotten.**”* > > > > > > *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is > > > intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This > > e-mail > > > transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail > > > transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain > > > confidential information > > that > > > is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of > > > this e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for > > > delivering > > it > > > to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > > > disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of > > > this transmission or any of the information contained in or attached > > > to this e-mail is > > strictly > > > prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, > > please > > > immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the > > > original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without > > > reading > > or > > > saving it in any manner. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:40 PM cliff--- via Sprinklerforum < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Joe, > > > > > > > > Why would you need the BFP if you have storage tanks? Are there > > > > other systems being fed from the same tanks that would necessitate > the BFP? > > > > > > > > Cliff Whitfield, SET > > > > President > > > > > > > > Fire Design, Inc. > > > > 940 Summerbrooke Drive > > > > Tallahassee, FL 32312 > > > > Ph: 828-284-4772 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a= > > > > https*3a*2f*2fwww.fire-desig__;JSUl!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TTHVu3P9zPjyVb > > > > 6NpB9AS2V987_FU3EZOWFLItv8uvHaNSNBZHRy6nVpsyJN9fFlQA$ > > > > n.com&c=E,1,3JWvfK1ys9q_zmWNWu7eGNEzfNF_imyTCXsA69Dw5EXEI714QvJqkQ > > > > nD3kMBXZ3FeFh-3R-3PRB7X0VApyBH-zuEmq-ZoxX2abpv4TNZtrNj_XrmneM2&typ > > > > o=1 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Sprinklerforum > > > > <[email protected]> > > On > > > > Behalf Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 3:33 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Cc: Joe Burtell <[email protected]> > > > > Subject: Fire Pump Backflow > > > > > > > > I have a situation with a verticle in-line fire pump fed from > > > > water storage tanks. We have a double check backflow installed > > > > between the > > > tanks > > > > and the fire pump but we don't have enough pressure to open the > > backflow > > > on > > > > the upstream side between the tank and backflow. I talked with > > > > Watts > > > about > > > > it. They stated there are no backflows with weaker springs. I only > > > > have about 7 PSI out of the tanks. Has anyone ran into this > > > > situation before > > > and > > > > have any suggestions to resolve the issue? The engineer suggested > > piping > > > > the jockey pump before the backflow. Not sure how that would work > > > > in > > > theory. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* > > > > > > > > [image: Burtell Fire_Small] > > > > > > > > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* > > > > > > > > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 > > > > > > > > Email: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Web Site: > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a= > > > > http*3a*2f*2fwww.burtellfire__;JSUl!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TTHVu3P9zPjyVb > > > > 6NpB9AS2V987_FU3EZOWFLItv8uvHaNSNBZHRy6nVpsyL8RH7Chg$ > > > > .com&c=E,1,mIS0DGsb3z0wjTyb83882uSgINqgEFSGqLh18uWfYKCOnl3nwa2TC-0 > > > > fcXvhg0j4XSJsuAWqyMpdtzdHuSJ_WxvO3Q7o-hPO8xm9_oxxdjk7&typo=1 > > > > > > > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the > > > > sweetness of > > > low > > > > price is forgotten.**”* > > > > > > > > *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission > > > > is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. > > > > This > > > e-mail > > > > transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail > > > > transmissions > > or > > > > other information attached to it, may contain confidential > > > > information > > > that > > > > is legally privileged. 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