[Sprinklerforum] Re: [External]Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

Ken Wagoner Mon, 01 Jul 2024 10:05:47 -0700

Permit me to add to the good information provided by Steve.

Several years ago when I still lived in San Diego, Matt Klaus from NFPA came out to present a seminar on NFPA 25 to local AHJ's.

Some of them were shocked, surprised, and greatly upset by learning the limitations of what NFPA 25, and it's California equivalent CA-25, actually cover. One of them, whom I promised not to identify by name, told me after the presentation that he believed that an NFPA 25 inspection confirmed that the system had been correctly designed to address the current use of the system. He was absolutely floored when he learned otherwise.

I can't imagine any of the testing requirements discovering the issue Brian has presented us for this discussion. Perhaps the annual or quarterly main drain tests would reveal a 10% reduction in available pressure, however it would likely not address a reduced supply quantity directly.

sincerely,

Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
Phone: (760) 745-6181
Visit the website

On 7/1/2024 11:33 AM, Steve Leyton wrote:

Living in the Pacific time zone means that I’m usually late to the party, but Kyle just hit on what I was going to add to this conversation.      Per fire code, this building has a minimum fire flow requirement of 1,500 gpm with reduction for sprinklers, and depending on gross area, it may be more. I don’t want to veer too far off topic here, but we have an INSIDIOUS problem with water supply deterioration in San Diego and this may well be an endemic issue on a broader scale.   When I started in the trade (an era now known as the Before Times), much of SoCal’s water systems were brand new and the expansion of our suburban built environment meant that infrastructure had to be developed to facilitate growth, especially in LA, Orange and San Diego Counties.   Many of the water systems were commissioned with well over 100 psi static pressures and high-high residuals and 6,000 gpm flow capabilities. These have diminished due to increased demand as more and more meters are connected to these zones, and also because some of the zones with especially high pressures have actually been “turned down” by the systems operators (both muni and private), because they found over time that 120 psi residual pressure leads to all sorts of surge- and hammer-related fatigue and maintenance issues.

The problem, as you have here, is that if the owners of properties affected by these changes aren’t informed by the water purveyors that they now have 40-60 less psi of working pressure. No much you can do about organic pressure drops, but when the sysop intentionally reduces the pressure and doesn’t advise its ratepayers…   like, wow.   And this is going on right now in my home region.   Try to explain to a property owner that they may have to put in a fire pump because the fire official that serves them is holding them accountable for the operational strategies of the water department that serves them, and they’re the SAME municipality. Seems to me that there’s a helluva bruhaha a’ brewing.

Back to this one – if the FD can’t draw 1,000 gpm from the public water supply, then THAT is what needs to be investigated.   I know that we’re all in the business of selling work, but there’s more than a touch of Stockholm Syndrome in the acceptance of this fate by both ownership and the fire protection community.   I’m a consultant, so my first advice to this owner would be get a stool and take it to city hall and go from department to department – fire, water, economic development, city attorney – and get up on that stool and start screaming as loudly as possible that this agency or that agency has put them in a corner that will cost 6-figures that they’ve not been reserving in the operation of this building.   Even if the owner has religiously kept up an NFPA 25 ITM program, there would have been NOTHING they could do to mitigate or pre-empt this deficiency and it’s most certainly not the responsibility of private property owners to assure that the water purveyor and serving fire department are on same page regarding the delivery of adequate fire flow.

The code hasn’t changed, it’s the water supply that dropped.   Code says the building owner must maintain fire/life safety systems in accordance with codes and standards in effect when the building was certified for occupancy, unless use and occupancy class change.   Has the occupancy class changed, or is the building still being used for what it was originally certified for?   If no change, then what I would do (advising the owner as a consultant, or as the owner myself) is to respectfully send a letter to the city attorney or city manager depending on type of government model, and respectfully decline to conform to any notice of correction that I received.   If the building was approved with a manual standpipe, and it’s still 4-stories high and hasn’t changed use, then it’s still required to have a manual standpipe.    The fire official is not empowered to make a code exception and require them to have an automatic one and I’d call them on that.    If you want to get involved that’s your choice, but if you start down this path you are incurring potential liability that I personally would not touch.

This sh*t is starting to make me mental…

Steve L.

From: Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2024 9:05 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [External]Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

Agreed. Also, if they can’t support a manual standpipe calculation, how are they able to support the site fire flow requirements? That’s usually at least 1,000 GPM, and often much greater.

Kyle Montgomery

Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co.

21605 N. Central Ave.

Phoenix, AZ 85024

Direct: 623.580.7820

Cell: 602.763.4736

[email protected]

From: Ken Wagoner <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 8:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [External][Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

What Cliff said.

Among the issues I have to suggest you ask is "why" the city supply has diminished. And, as always, I agree with Cliff, it's likely not the responsibility of the building owner (school district?) to sort out the "why" issues.

hope this helps,

Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
Phone: (760) 745-6181
Visit the website

On 7/1/2024 10:03 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Brian,

I may be completely off base on this but, if the city supply can’t supply 1000 gpm to the site and it could at some point in time, it sounds like they have an issue with their underground piping. They need to start looking for a partially closed isolation valve in their system. It’s either that or an obstruction in their line. Either way, I don’t think it’s the building owner’s responsibility to solve the City’s issue.

Cliff Whitfield, SET

President

Fire Design, Inc.

940 Summerbrooke Dr

Tallahassee, FL 32312

Ph: 828-284-4772

From: Brian Harris <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 10:57 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

Mostly volume, slight pressure.

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET

BVS Systems Inc.

From: Fpdcdesign <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 9:55 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

Volume or pressure?

Todd Williams

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-608-4559

On Jul 1, 2024 at 9:25 AM, <Brian Harris> wrote:

Todd-

Yes, it’s a manual wet standpipe. Problem is the city supply has dropped a fair amount and now the standpipe test won’t pass.

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET

BVS Systems Inc.

From: Fpdcdesign <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 9:21 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

Isn’t this a 4 story building? Below the high rise threshold, I assume. Can it be a manual wet standpipe?

Todd Williams

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-608-4559

On Jul 1, 2024 at 9:09 AM, <Paul Kimble> wrote:

Has anyone done a valued engineering survey of the city water supply and compared the original water test provided to the current. Is the city supply a gravity fed system or a system utilizing pumps? There may have been a pump down when you performed your last test or there maybe valves within the city supply that are partially open causing your loss.

Paul D. Kimble

VP Operations

A.S. Barlin Associates, Inc.

[email protected]

(973) 696-6601 Office

(973) 632-8341 Cell

From: Eric Rieve <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 8:27 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

Brian,

I have the feeling that messing around with something complicated like a break-tank and having to rearrange your fire pump wouldn’t be worth it compared to simply installing a 30-minute duration dry hydrant on the property. It would be a lot larger tank but would guarantee you have a dedicated water supply volume just for standpipes.

If your city water supply has already lost 25% of it’s capacity, trying to design a work-around based on the new number is just setting the property up for having to go through the entire exercise again when the supply gets even worse. Taking the standpipe demand out altogether also benefits the sprinkler system’s design longevity since you’ll have significantly reduced the demand going forward.

Just my two cents.

Hope this helps,

Eric Rieve, SET
Rieve Fire Protection

From: Brian Harris <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 7:53 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

Travis-

Yes, & yes. My question was since the system was designed and installed the water supply now is about 3/4 of what it was. We are looking to supplement the city supply with a water tank since the fire truck shuts down before we can get the 1000gpm. The city supply is running out of water. I was curious as to the sizing of a supplemental tank. I see if it’s only supplied by a tank, it needs a 30-minute duration. Since the city is capable of supplying “most” of the demand I looking for the best way would be to properly size a tank.

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET

BVS Systems Inc.

From: Travis Mack <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 7:45 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

I doubt that school is tall enough to be a high rise. Manual is allowed per NFPA 14. Do you know what a manual standpipe is? If so, contact the AHJ to find out what they require you use as a supply value. A manual standpipe has its supply as the FDC. So calculate as the FDC as your supply with the values the ahj provides. It’s likely going to be something like 150 psi at 1000 gpm.

Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD |

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

www.mepcad.com | m: 480.547.9348

AutoSPRINK | AutoSPRINK FAB | AutoSPRINK RVT | AlarmCAD

Book appointment time in my calendar

https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad

From: Brian Harris <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 4:38:05 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

Yasser

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET

BVS Systems Inc.

From: Yasser Amer Ahmed <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 6:44 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

Hi Brian,

As per NFPA-14, 5.2 (2024 Ed.) 5.2 Minimum Supply for Class I, Class D, and Class III Systems. The minimum water supply shall be capable of providing the system de1nand established by Chapter 10 for at least 30 minutes.

All Gratitude,

Yasser Amer Ahmed

Fire Protection & Plumbing Specialist

Registered Fire Protection Consultant

MBA, LEED AP BD+C™, CPD, CFPS, MIFireE, PMSFPE

Smart Village, Cairo-Alexandria Desert Road

Street 26, Building 10

P.O. Box: 129, Giza 12577, Egypt

Tel: +202 3531 8000

Fax: +202 3537 1223

dar.com

Please consider the environment before printing this document

From: Travis Mack <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 1:34 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

! External Email, Use Caution !

Is it a high rise or mid rise? If mid rise, calc it to the FDC and be done. If a high rise and automatic standpipe, check NFPA 14. The duration is 30 minutes. So that is how you would size a tank.

Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD |

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

www.mepcad.com | m: 480.547.9348

AutoSPRINK | AutoSPRINK FAB | AutoSPRINK RVT | AlarmCAD

Book appointment time in my calendar

https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad

From: Brian Harris <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 3:31:59 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Water Tank for Standpipe

We have a project where the water supply has degraded a good bit since installation was completed. Sprinkler system and pump test all pass but the standpipe test runs out of water. Only thing I can think of to help would be a water tank but how would you even size one since the “duration” of a standpipe test is open ended? Any other thoughts?

Thank you,

Brian Harris, CET

BVS Systems Inc.

bvssystemsinc.com

Phone: 704.896.9989

Fax: 704.896.1935

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: [External]Re: Water Tank for Standpipe

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