Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-608-4559 > > On Jul 1, 2024 at 12:33 PM, <Steve Leyton > (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > Living in the Pacific time zone means that I’m usually late to the party, but > Kyle just hit on what I was going to add to this conversation. > Per fire code, this building has a minimum fire flow requirement of 1,500 gpm > with reduction for sprinklers, and depending on gross area, it may be more. > I don’t want to veer too far off topic here, but we have an INSIDIOUS > problem with water supply deterioration in San Diego and this may well be an > endemic issue on a broader scale. When I started in the trade (an era > now known as the Before Times), much of SoCal’s water systems were brand new > and the expansion of our suburban built environment meant that infrastructure > had to be developed to facilitate growth, especially in LA, Orange and San > Diego Counties. Many of the water systems were commissioned with well > over 100 psi static pressures and high-high residuals and 6,000 gpm flow > capabilities. These have diminished due to increased demand as more and > more meters are connected to these zones, and also because some of the zones > with especially high pressures have actually been “turned down” by the > systems operators (both muni and private), because they found over time that > 120 psi residual pressure leads to all sorts of surge- and hammer-related > fatigue and maintenance issues. > > > > > > > > The problem, as you have here, is that if the owners of properties > affected by these changes aren’t informed by the water purveyors that they > now have 40-60 less psi of working pressure. No much you can do about > organic pressure drops, but when the sysop intentionally reduces the pressure > and doesn’t advise its ratepayers… like, wow. And this is going on > right now in my home region. Try to explain to a property owner that > they may have to put in a fire pump because the fire official that serves > them is holding them accountable for the operational strategies of the water > department that serves them, and they’re the SAME municipality. Seems > to me that there’s a helluva bruhaha a’ brewing. > > > > > > > > Back to this one – if the FD can’t draw 1,000 gpm from the public water > supply, then THAT is what needs to be investigated. I know that we’re > all in the business of selling work, but there’s more than a touch of > Stockholm Syndrome in the acceptance of this fate by both ownership and the > fire protection community. I’m a consultant, so my first advice to this > owner would be get a stool and take it to city hall and go from department to > department – fire, water, economic development, city attorney – and get up on > that stool and start screaming as loudly as possible that this agency or that > agency has put them in a corner that will cost 6-figures that they’ve not > been reserving in the operation of this building. Even if the owner has > religiously kept up an NFPA 25 ITM program, there would have been NOTHING > they could do to mitigate or pre-empt this deficiency and it’s most certainly > not the responsibility of private property owners to assure that the water > purveyor and serving fire department are on same page regarding the delivery > of adequate fire flow. > > > > > > > > The code hasn’t changed, it’s the water supply that dropped. Code says > the building owner must maintain fire/life safety systems in accordance with > codes and standards in effect when the building was certified for occupancy, > unless use and occupancy class change. Has the occupancy class changed, > or is the building still being used for what it was originally certified for? > If no change, then what I would do (advising the owner as a consultant, > or as the owner myself) is to respectfully send a letter to the city attorney > or city manager depending on type of government model, and respectfully > decline to conform to any notice of correction that I received. If the > building was approved with a manual standpipe, and it’s still 4-stories high > and hasn’t changed use, then it’s still required to have a manual standpipe. > The fire official is not empowered to make a code exception and > require them to have an automatic one and I’d call them on that. If > you want to get involved that’s your choice, but if you start down this path > you are incurring potential liability that I personally would not touch. > > > > > > > > This sh*t is starting to make me mental… > > > > > > > > Steve L. > > > > > > > > > > From: Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2024 9:05 AM > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > <[email protected]> > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [External]Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > Agreed. Also, if they can’t support a manual standpipe calculation, how are > they able to support the site fire flow requirements? That’s usually at least > 1,000 GPM, and often much greater. > > > > > > > > Kyle Montgomery > > > > > > > > Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. > > > > 21605 N. Central Ave. > > > > Phoenix, AZ 85024 > > > > Direct: 623.580.7820 > > > > Cell: 602.763.4736 > > > > [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ken Wagoner <[email protected] > (mailto:[email protected])> > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 8:09 AM > To: [email protected] > (mailto:[email protected]) > Subject: [External][Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > What Cliff said. > > Among the issues I have to suggest you ask is "why" the city supply has > diminished. And, as always, I agree with Cliff, it's likely not the > responsibility of the building owner (school district?) to sort out the "why" > issues. > > hope this helps, > > > > > Ken Wagoner, SET > Parsley Consulting > 500 West Mechanic Street > Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235 > Phone: (760) 745-6181 > Visit the website > (https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1) > > > > > > > > > > On 7/1/2024 10:03 AM, [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I may be completely off base on this but, if the city supply can’t > > supply 1000 gpm to the site and it could at some point in time, it sounds > > like they have an issue with their underground piping. They need to > > start looking for a partially closed isolation valve in their system. > > It’s either that or an obstruction in their line. Either way, I don’t > > think it’s the building owner’s responsibility to solve the City’s issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cliff Whitfield, SET > > > > > > > > President > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fire Design, Inc. > > > > > > > > 940 Summerbrooke Dr > > > > > > > > Tallahassee, FL 32312 > > > > > > > > Ph: 828-284-4772 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Brian Harris <[email protected]> > > (mailto:[email protected]) > > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 10:57 AM > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > <[email protected]> > > (mailto:[email protected]) > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mostly volume, slight pressure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > > > > > > > BVS Systems Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Fpdcdesign <[email protected] (mailto:[email protected])> > > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 9:55 AM > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > <[email protected] > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Volume or pressure? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd Williams > > > > > > > > > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > > > > > > > > > > > Stonington, CT > > > > > > > > > > > > 860-608-4559 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 1, 2024 at 9:25 AM, <Brian Harris > > > (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd- > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, it’s a manual wet standpipe. Problem is the city supply has dropped > > > a fair amount and now the standpipe test won’t pass. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > > > > > > > > > > > BVS Systems Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Fpdcdesign <[email protected] (mailto:[email protected])> > > > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 9:21 AM > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > > <[email protected] > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn’t this a 4 story building? Below the high rise threshold, I assume. > > > Can it be a manual wet standpipe? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd Williams > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stonington, CT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 860-608-4559 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 1, 2024 at 9:09 AM, <Paul Kimble (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone done a valued engineering survey of the city water supply > > > > and compared the original water test provided to the current. Is the > > > > city supply a gravity fed system or a system utilizing pumps? There may > > > > have been a pump down when you performed your last test or there maybe > > > > valves within the city supply that are partially open causing your > > > > loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul D. Kimble > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > VP Operations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A.S. Barlin Associates, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (973) 696-6601 Office > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (973) 632-8341 Cell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Eric Rieve <[email protected] (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 8:27 AM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > > > <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the feeling that messing around with something complicated like > > > > a break-tank and having to rearrange your fire pump wouldn’t be worth > > > > it compared to simply installing a 30-minute duration dry hydrant on > > > > the property. It would be a lot larger tank but would guarantee you > > > > have a dedicated water supply volume just for standpipes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If your city water supply has already lost 25% of it’s capacity, trying > > > > to design a work-around based on the new number is just setting the > > > > property up for having to go through the entire exercise again when the > > > > supply gets even worse. Taking the standpipe demand out altogether also > > > > benefits the sprinkler system’s design longevity since you’ll have > > > > significantly reduced the demand going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just my two cents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Rieve, SET > > > > Rieve Fire Protection > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Brian Harris <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 7:53 AM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > > > <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Travis- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, & yes. My question was since the system was designed and > > > > installed the water supply now is about 3/4 of what it was. We are > > > > looking to supplement the city supply with a water tank since the fire > > > > truck shuts down before we can get the 1000gpm. The city supply is > > > > running out of water. I was curious as to the sizing of a supplemental > > > > tank. I see if it’s only supplied by a tank, it needs a 30-minute > > > > duration. Since the city is capable of supplying “most” of the demand I > > > > looking for the best way would be to properly size a tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BVS Systems Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Travis Mack <[email protected] (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 7:45 AM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > > > <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doubt that school is tall enough to be a high rise. Manual is > > > > allowed per NFPA 14. Do you know what a manual standpipe is? If so, > > > > contact the AHJ to find out what they require you use as a supply > > > > value. A manual standpipe has its supply as the FDC. So calculate as > > > > the FDC as your supply with the values the ahj provides. It’s likely > > > > going to be something like 150 psi at 1000 gpm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Travis Mack, SET > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M.E.P.CAD | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.mepcad.com (http://www.mepcad.com/) | m: 480.547.9348 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AutoSPRINK | AutoSPRINK FAB | AutoSPRINK RVT | > > > > AlarmCAD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Book appointment time in my calendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Brian Harris <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 4:38:05 AM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > > > <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yasser > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BVS Systems Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Yasser Amer Ahmed <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 6:44 AM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > > > <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As per NFPA-14, 5.2 (2024 Ed.) 5.2 Minimum Supply for Class I, Class D, > > > > and Class III Systems. The minimum water supply shall be capable of > > > > providing the system de1nand established by Chapter 10 for at least 30 > > > > minutes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All Gratitude, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yasser Amer Ahmed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fire Protection & Plumbing Specialist > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Registered Fire Protection Consultant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MBA, LEED AP BD+C™, CPD, CFPS, MIFireE, PMSFPE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Smart Village, Cairo-Alexandria Desert Road > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Street 26, Building 10 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.O. Box: 129, Giza 12577, Egypt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tel: +202 3531 8000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fax: +202 3537 1223 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dar.com > > > > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dar.com_&d=DwMFAg&c=0YGvTs3tT-VMy8_v51yLDw&r=BPv183lhQEq9N7uN6BtSUYy-qO1aQth8MfS3CXy9v8o&m=AwHdiOGHCF__Z72zfS9hXpv57AcrHPsoC4nxS7tvlkY&s=RZxKhKFy24ZwTQD2ONzIVG3oH1WAdGB-GK2L6HoX0Fs&e=) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dar.com_&d=DwMFAg&c=0YGvTs3tT-VMy8_v51yLDw&r=BPv183lhQEq9N7uN6BtSUYy-qO1aQth8MfS3CXy9v8o&m=AwHdiOGHCF__Z72zfS9hXpv57AcrHPsoC4nxS7tvlkY&s=RZxKhKFy24ZwTQD2ONzIVG3oH1WAdGB-GK2L6HoX0Fs&e=) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this document > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Travis Mack <[email protected] (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 1:34 PM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > > > <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ! External Email, Use Caution ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it a high rise or mid rise? If mid rise, calc it to the FDC and be > > > > done. If a high rise and automatic standpipe, check NFPA 14. The > > > > duration is 30 minutes. So that is how you would size a tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Travis Mack, SET > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M.E.P.CAD | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.mepcad.com > > > > (https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.mepcad.com%2f&c=E,1,-4N2RZKUba_tdy65g6bmxh0QKzZyB4IFxh7FewvPS08dfMil9SJ7e-nULD3iv8Tco6tXDK1EfeIYVTl6v8gt_jeh3nwQJShLejhSBFPVdWqVOxQnapv-TMIHA6g,&typo=1) > > > > | m: 480.547.9348 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AutoSPRINK | AutoSPRINK FAB | AutoSPRINK RVT | > > > > AlarmCAD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Book appointment time in my calendar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Brian Harris <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 3:31:59 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected]) > > > > <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Water Tank for Standpipe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have a project where the water supply has degraded a good bit since > > > > installation was completed. Sprinkler system and pump test all pass but > > > > the standpipe test runs out of water. Only thing I can think of to help > > > > would be a water tank but how would you even size one since the > > > > “duration” of a standpipe test is open ended? Any other thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BVS Systems Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bvssystemsinc.com > > > > (https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbvssystemsinc.com%2f&c=E,1,DxViP7dSzV-R2rx5fGIyoL1vsDK_tTbfrJamJJsCEkhMVaCVUXX3uMknt5ksggBpEfXELKFUusTuDEcjOcvs4e1Xf-ZA6si2AAvUiof7pgyIcg,,&typo=1) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone: 704.896.9989 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fax: 704.896.1935 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Confidentiality & Disclaimer Note: This e-mail (including any > > > > attachments) contain protected and confidential information intended > > > > for the sole use of the individual or organization addressee. 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