Hi Steve, As you say, folks are entitled to their opinions.
Learning how to help people to use less biomass to cook, breathe less smoke, is as much a part of the 'world of stoves' as the research, development, manufacturing of stoves. Carbon credit financing has been a very helpful part of the picture and hopefully will continue to subsidize better stoves. In my opinion, the arguing over whether climate change is caused by humans is a separate topic and is not very well related to the intentions of this list. Best, Dean On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Steven Wilson <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi all, > > Of course everyone is entitled to their own view on whether anthropogenic > climate change is a reality. And if you don't believe it is then certainly > supporting any carbon offset scheme would be a scandal for your conscience. > However many of us (including myself) are of the firm view that it is a > reality. And that being the case I believe carbon offsets can be a > legitimate and helpful tool if done properly. > > I am trying to implement a stove project among the urban poor in > the slums of India. Our community surveys have indicated that people would > love the opportunity to cook smoke-free, however on average the survey > respondents reported only being able to afford Rs 75 ($1.35) for a new > stove. It's all very well to say "just make good products that people want > to buy", but decent improved cookstoves are financially well out of the > reach of many who could benefit from them. Through carbon offsets there is > however the potential to bring them within reach. So we are looking to sell > carbon offsets to individuals in the voluntary carbon offset market to fund > the stoves, thereby making a project in the slums viable. > > Sure, some carbon offset schemes may be poorly designed and have negative > consequences - they need to be prevented. But surely the whole concept > should not receive the condemnation only some projects deserve. > > Regards, > Steve Wilson > > > > From: [email protected] > > Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 27 > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:00:38 -0700 > > > > Send Stoves mailing list submissions to > > [email protected] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [email protected] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [email protected] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. interesting link (Ronald Hongsermeier) > > 2. Re: interesting link (Ron Larson) > > 3. Re: interesting link (Ronald Hongsermeier) > > 4. Re: interesting link ([email protected]) > > 5. Re: interesting link (Andrew C. Parker) > > 6. Re: interesting link (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott) > > 7. Re: interesting link ([email protected]) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:07:37 +0200 > > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: [Stoves] interesting link > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > > http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:58:23 -0600 > > From: Ron Larson <[email protected]> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > > <[email protected]> > > Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > Ronald and list: > > > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has > to stoves? > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Stoves mailing list > > > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > > [email protected] > > > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:17:21 +0200 > > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > Dear Mr. AbovecloudlevelinColorado Larson, > > > > Think of it as motivation for coming up with more rational helps to get > > people into thinking about efficiency in their stove use and sales than > > carbon credits. > > :D > > > > regards, > > Ronald von UnterderwolkendeckeninBayern > > > > > > > > > > > > On 23.06.2012 16:58, Ron Larson wrote: > > > Ronald and list: > > > > > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has > to stoves? > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > >> > http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Stoves mailing list > > >> > > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > >> [email protected] > > >> > > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > >> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > >> > > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web > site: > > >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Stoves mailing list > > > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > > [email protected] > > > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5087 - Release Date: 06/22/12 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:05:18 +0000 (UTC) > > From: [email protected] > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link > > Message-ID: > > < > 1238849211.1464511.1340471118290.javamail.r...@sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Ronald > > > > Yours is a worthy goal, but you've picked the wrong cite. ClimateDepot > is well known as a place which thinks energy efficiency is for wimps. Of > course they obviously know everything there is to be known about cost > efficiency. > > > > Still hope you can find a reference that mentions stoves. > > > > Ron Larson (aka von oberhalbdemSmogaufDenver) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ronald Hongsermeier" <[email protected]> > > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" < > [email protected]> > > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:17:21 AM > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link > > > > Dear Mr. AbovecloudlevelinColorado Larson, > > > > Think of it as motivation for coming up with more rational helps to get > > people into thinking about efficiency in their stove use and sales than > > carbon credits. > > :D > > > > regards, > > Ronald von UnterderwolkendeckeninBayern > > > > > > > > > > > > On 23.06.2012 16:58, Ron Larson wrote: > > > Ronald and list: > > > > > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has > to stoves? > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > >> > http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Stoves mailing list > > >> > > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > >> [email protected] > > >> > > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > >> > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > >> > > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web > site: > > >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Stoves mailing list > > > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > > [email protected] > > > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web > site: > > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5087 - Release Date: > 06/22/12 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Stoves mailing list > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > [email protected] > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120623/ec40c03d/attachment-0001.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:35:47 -0600 > > From: "Andrew C. Parker" <[email protected]> > > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link > > Message-ID: <op.wgc9txbauoov7l@user-8ezctxe031> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; > > delsp=yes > > > > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health > > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be > > cleared to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits > > farce. The people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared > > and forced into refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of > > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom? > > > > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek > to > > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death, > > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something bad > > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to 100,000 > > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice? > > > > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change. > > > > > > Andrew Parker (not AJH) > > > > > > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for > > math heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine). > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:46:45 -0400 > > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Dear Andrew P > > > > > > > > I appreciate all three sites you mentioned precisely because of the math! > > > > > > > > To my surprise there was on the CBC (a relentlessly Warmist channel) an > > interview today with a lady who was very well informed on the miseries to > > which the dispossessed poor are victims of the new green-grab, they > called > > it, where the carbon cowboys roll into town to 'save the forests' and > make > > megabucks in the process. > > > > > > > > There was a discussion on WUWT of the stoves programmes, mostly GACC, > > attacking the EPA for touting ridiculous plans. I engaged some of the > > bloggers pointing out the pretty serious errors in logic (that fuel > contains > > 'inherent emissions' of PM and all that nonsense) pointing out the > > remarkable success achieved in only 1 year in Ulaanbaatar using an open > > mind, knowledge of good combustion and a real time test protocol (HTP). > With > > emissions down more than 99% (which I assume LBLN's Henrick Wallman will > > talk about in his upcoming webinar) there was a pretty solid rebuttal of > the > > knee-jerk comments that stoves are all smoky and messy and need to be > > replaced by good, clean propane. > > > > > > > > More to the correct topic: the pillaging of the standing forests is a new > > type of colonialism where 'green activists' appropriate all local rights > of > > use so they can make money selling offsets to the West. What makes it so > > galling is the defectiveness of the foundational argument - that human > cause > > CO2 emissions are dramatically (or even detectably) warming the planet - > and > > the bull-headed resistance to the mounting evidence that the educated > guess > > taken 25 years ago by Hansen et al was wrong. > > > > > > > > My advice remains the same: do not put money into a stove programme that > > depends on carbon trading for survival. Just make good products that > people > > want to buy. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Crispin > > > > > > > > +++++ > > > > > > > > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health > > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be > cleared > > to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits farce. > The > > people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared and forced > into > > refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of > > > > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom? > > > > > > > > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek to > > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death, > > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something bad > > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to 100,000 > > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice? > > > > > > > > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change. > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrew Parker (not AJH) > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for > math > > heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine). > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120623/833d433f/attachment-0001.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:54:29 +0000 (UTC) > > From: [email protected] > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > > <[email protected]>, "Andrew C. Parker" > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link > > Message-ID: > > < > 1118696453.1467520.1340477669618.javamail.r...@sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Andrew Parker and list : > > > > As in my last reply to Ronald H, I don't see that you are providing > links that will help lead to better stoves. Lists like the three in your > "P.S." have zero interest in what this list is about - and in fact I > believe all three are doing a good job of making sure we are unsuccessful > in bringing about better stoves. > > > > Your motivation (first sentence) for getting into this topic is much > like many on the list. I started personally with concern about the > desertification disaster happening in Sudan - all because of charcoal > production in that country's boondocks. Charcoal-making stoves can help a > lot with desertification/deforestation, even if the char is used by others > for cooking - because most present char production is so horrible. > > > > But many of us on this list have come to see the char as being better > for everyone if placed in the ground. Carbon credits will be helpful in > that regard. If done appropriately, they can also do a lot to prevent (not > encourage) what you rightfully deplore. The issue for this list should be > on any/every approach that will give developing country stove users better > stoves. With charcoal-making stoves, stove users can even make money while > cooking, while meeting your two concerns: saving forests and gaining better > health. > > > > These topics, which seem important to you, should be on the table at Rio > + 20 - and I can't see that they are. Because, in part, of the three sites > listed below in your "P.S." > > > > Ron > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Andrew C. Parker" <[email protected]> > > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" < > [email protected]> > > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:35:47 AM > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link > > > > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health > > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be > > cleared to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits > > farce. The people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared > > and forced into refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of > > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom? > > > > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek > to > > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death, > > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something bad > > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to 100,000 > > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice? > > > > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change. > > > > > > Andrew Parker (not AJH) > > > > > > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for > > math heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine). > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Stoves mailing list > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > [email protected] > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120623/217b4674/attachment-0001.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Stoves mailing list > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > [email protected] > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > End of Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 27 > > ************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > >
_______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/
