I agree with Dean's assessment and position on this issue. The voluntary carbon market does not depend on governments
Best wishes stovers David On 6/24/12, Dean Still <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > As you say, folks are entitled to their opinions. > > Learning how to help people to use less biomass to cook, breathe less > smoke, is as much a part of the 'world of stoves' as the research, > development, manufacturing of stoves. Carbon credit financing has been a > very helpful part of the picture and hopefully will continue to subsidize > better stoves. In my opinion, the arguing over whether climate change is > caused by humans is a separate topic and is not very well related to the > intentions of this list. > > Best, > > Dean > > On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Steven Wilson > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> Of course everyone is entitled to their own view on whether anthropogenic >> climate change is a reality. And if you don't believe it is then >> certainly >> supporting any carbon offset scheme would be a scandal for your >> conscience. >> However many of us (including myself) are of the firm view that it is a >> reality. And that being the case I believe carbon offsets can be a >> legitimate and helpful tool if done properly. >> >> I am trying to implement a stove project among the urban poor in >> the slums of India. Our community surveys have indicated that people >> would >> love the opportunity to cook smoke-free, however on average the survey >> respondents reported only being able to afford Rs 75 ($1.35) for a new >> stove. It's all very well to say "just make good products that people >> want >> to buy", but decent improved cookstoves are financially well out of the >> reach of many who could benefit from them. Through carbon offsets there >> is >> however the potential to bring them within reach. So we are looking to >> sell >> carbon offsets to individuals in the voluntary carbon offset market to >> fund >> the stoves, thereby making a project in the slums viable. >> >> Sure, some carbon offset schemes may be poorly designed and have negative >> consequences - they need to be prevented. But surely the whole concept >> should not receive the condemnation only some projects deserve. >> >> Regards, >> Steve Wilson >> >> >> > From: [email protected] >> > Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 27 >> > To: [email protected] >> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:00:38 -0700 >> > >> > Send Stoves mailing list submissions to >> > [email protected] >> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> > >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> > [email protected] >> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > [email protected] >> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> > than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..." >> > >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. interesting link (Ronald Hongsermeier) >> > 2. Re: interesting link (Ron Larson) >> > 3. Re: interesting link (Ronald Hongsermeier) >> > 4. Re: interesting link ([email protected]) >> > 5. Re: interesting link (Andrew C. Parker) >> > 6. Re: interesting link (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott) >> > 7. Re: interesting link ([email protected]) >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:07:37 +0200 >> > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> >> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves >> > <[email protected]> >> > Subject: [Stoves] interesting link >> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> > >> > >> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 2 >> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:58:23 -0600 >> > From: Ron Larson <[email protected]> >> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves >> > <[email protected]> >> > Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves >> > <[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link >> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > >> > Ronald and list: >> > >> > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it has >> to stoves? >> > >> > Ron >> > >> > >> > >> > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > > >> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Stoves mailing list >> > > >> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> > > [email protected] >> > > >> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> > > >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> > > >> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web >> > > site: >> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 3 >> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:17:21 +0200 >> > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> >> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves >> > <[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link >> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> > >> > Dear Mr. AbovecloudlevelinColorado Larson, >> > >> > Think of it as motivation for coming up with more rational helps to get >> > people into thinking about efficiency in their stove use and sales than >> > carbon credits. >> > :D >> > >> > regards, >> > Ronald von UnterderwolkendeckeninBayern >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 23.06.2012 16:58, Ron Larson wrote: >> > > Ronald and list: >> > > >> > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it >> > > has >> to stoves? >> > > >> > > Ron >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > >> > >> >> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> Stoves mailing list >> > >> >> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> > >> [email protected] >> > >> >> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> > >> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> > >> >> > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web >> site: >> > >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Stoves mailing list >> > > >> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> > > [email protected] >> > > >> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> > > >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> > > >> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web >> > > site: >> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- >> > > No virus found in this message. >> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5087 - Release Date: >> > > 06/22/12 >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 4 >> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:05:18 +0000 (UTC) >> > From: [email protected] >> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves >> > <[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link >> > Message-ID: >> > < >> 1238849211.1464511.1340471118290.javamail.r...@sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net >> > >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> > >> > Ronald >> > >> > Yours is a worthy goal, but you've picked the wrong cite. ClimateDepot >> is well known as a place which thinks energy efficiency is for wimps. Of >> course they obviously know everything there is to be known about cost >> efficiency. >> > >> > Still hope you can find a reference that mentions stoves. >> > >> > Ron Larson (aka von oberhalbdemSmogaufDenver) >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Ronald Hongsermeier" <[email protected]> >> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" < >> [email protected]> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:17:21 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link >> > >> > Dear Mr. AbovecloudlevelinColorado Larson, >> > >> > Think of it as motivation for coming up with more rational helps to get >> > people into thinking about efficiency in their stove use and sales than >> > carbon credits. >> > :D >> > >> > regards, >> > Ronald von UnterderwolkendeckeninBayern >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 23.06.2012 16:58, Ron Larson wrote: >> > > Ronald and list: >> > > >> > > I have glanced through this cite - and wonder what relationship it >> > > has >> to stoves? >> > > >> > > Ron >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 3:07 AM, Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > >> > >> >> http://www.climatedepot.com/a/9035/SPECIAL-REPORT-More-Than-1000-International-Scientists-Dissent-Over-ManMade-Global-Warming-Claims--Challenge-UN-IPCC--Gore#.T-VJ6M92ky8.facebook >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> Stoves mailing list >> > >> >> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> > >> [email protected] >> > >> >> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> > >> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> > >> >> > >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web >> site: >> > >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Stoves mailing list >> > > >> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> > > [email protected] >> > > >> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> > > >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> > > >> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web >> site: >> > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- >> > > No virus found in this message. >> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2433/5087 - Release Date: >> 06/22/12 >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Stoves mailing list >> > >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> > [email protected] >> > >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> > >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> > >> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: < >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120623/ec40c03d/attachment-0001.html >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 5 >> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 11:35:47 -0600 >> > From: "Andrew C. Parker" <[email protected]> >> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" >> > <[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link >> > Message-ID: <op.wgc9txbauoov7l@user-8ezctxe031> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed; >> > delsp=yes >> > >> > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health >> > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be >> > cleared to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits >> > farce. The people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared >> > and forced into refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of >> > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom? >> > >> > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek >> to >> > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death, >> > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something >> > bad >> > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to >> > 100,000 >> > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice? >> > >> > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change. >> > >> > >> > Andrew Parker (not AJH) >> > >> > >> > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for >> > math heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine). >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 6 >> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:46:45 -0400 >> > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> >> > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" >> > <[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link >> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > >> > Dear Andrew P >> > >> > >> > >> > I appreciate all three sites you mentioned precisely because of the >> > math! >> > >> > >> > >> > To my surprise there was on the CBC (a relentlessly Warmist channel) an >> > interview today with a lady who was very well informed on the miseries >> > to >> > which the dispossessed poor are victims of the new green-grab, they >> called >> > it, where the carbon cowboys roll into town to 'save the forests' and >> make >> > megabucks in the process. >> > >> > >> > >> > There was a discussion on WUWT of the stoves programmes, mostly GACC, >> > attacking the EPA for touting ridiculous plans. I engaged some of the >> > bloggers pointing out the pretty serious errors in logic (that fuel >> contains >> > 'inherent emissions' of PM and all that nonsense) pointing out the >> > remarkable success achieved in only 1 year in Ulaanbaatar using an open >> > mind, knowledge of good combustion and a real time test protocol (HTP). >> With >> > emissions down more than 99% (which I assume LBLN's Henrick Wallman >> > will >> > talk about in his upcoming webinar) there was a pretty solid rebuttal >> > of >> the >> > knee-jerk comments that stoves are all smoky and messy and need to be >> > replaced by good, clean propane. >> > >> > >> > >> > More to the correct topic: the pillaging of the standing forests is a >> > new >> > type of colonialism where 'green activists' appropriate all local >> > rights >> of >> > use so they can make money selling offsets to the West. What makes it >> > so >> > galling is the defectiveness of the foundational argument - that human >> cause >> > CO2 emissions are dramatically (or even detectably) warming the planet >> > - >> and >> > the bull-headed resistance to the mounting evidence that the educated >> guess >> > taken 25 years ago by Hansen et al was wrong. >> > >> > >> > >> > My advice remains the same: do not put money into a stove programme >> > that >> > depends on carbon trading for survival. Just make good products that >> people >> > want to buy. >> > >> > >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Crispin >> > >> > >> > >> > +++++ >> > >> > >> > >> > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health >> > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be >> cleared >> > to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits farce. >> The >> > people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared and forced >> into >> > refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of >> > >> > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom? >> > >> > >> > >> > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek >> > to >> > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death, >> > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something >> > bad >> > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to >> > 100,000 >> > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice? >> > >> > >> > >> > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Andrew Parker (not AJH) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for >> math >> > heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine). >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: < >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120623/833d433f/attachment-0001.html >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 7 >> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:54:29 +0000 (UTC) >> > From: [email protected] >> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves >> > <[email protected]>, "Andrew C. Parker" >> > <[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link >> > Message-ID: >> > < >> 1118696453.1467520.1340477669618.javamail.r...@sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net >> > >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> > >> > Andrew Parker and list : >> > >> > As in my last reply to Ronald H, I don't see that you are providing >> links that will help lead to better stoves. Lists like the three in your >> "P.S." have zero interest in what this list is about - and in fact I >> believe all three are doing a good job of making sure we are unsuccessful >> in bringing about better stoves. >> > >> > Your motivation (first sentence) for getting into this topic is much >> like many on the list. I started personally with concern about the >> desertification disaster happening in Sudan - all because of charcoal >> production in that country's boondocks. Charcoal-making stoves can help a >> lot with desertification/deforestation, even if the char is used by >> others >> for cooking - because most present char production is so horrible. >> > >> > But many of us on this list have come to see the char as being better >> for everyone if placed in the ground. Carbon credits will be helpful in >> that regard. If done appropriately, they can also do a lot to prevent >> (not >> encourage) what you rightfully deplore. The issue for this list should be >> on any/every approach that will give developing country stove users >> better >> stoves. With charcoal-making stoves, stove users can even make money >> while >> cooking, while meeting your two concerns: saving forests and gaining >> better >> health. >> > >> > These topics, which seem important to you, should be on the table at >> > Rio >> + 20 - and I can't see that they are. Because, in part, of the three >> sites >> listed below in your "P.S." >> > >> > Ron >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Andrew C. Parker" <[email protected]> >> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" < >> [email protected]> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 11:35:47 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] interesting link >> > >> > My interest in efficient stoves was spurred by deforestation and health >> > concerns. Now the forests I was trying to protect are slated to be >> > cleared to make way for palm oil plantations to feed the carbon credits >> > farce. The people whose lives I hoped to improve are also being cleared >> > and forced into refugee camps. An environment that supported upwards of >> > 100,000 will support only a few hundred. For what? For whom? >> > >> > Invoking the Precautionary Principle, we force the very people we seek >> to >> > protect with our policies into immediate devastation, misery and death, >> > rather than position ourselves to assist in the event that something >> > bad >> > might, maybe, perhaps happen to them sometime in the next 100 to >> > 100,000 >> > years as a result of man caused CO2 release. This is Climate Justice? >> > >> > Its anthropogenic, but the suffering isn't because of climate change. >> > >> > >> > Andrew Parker (not AJH) >> > >> > >> > P.S. If you don't like Climate Depot, try wattsupwiththat.com, or for >> > math heads, climateaudit.org (I try, but it gives me a migraine). >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Stoves mailing list >> > >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> > [email protected] >> > >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> > >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> > >> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: < >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20120623/217b4674/attachment-0001.html >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Stoves mailing list >> > >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> > [email protected] >> > >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> > >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> > >> > >> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> > >> > >> > End of Stoves Digest, Vol 22, Issue 27 >> > ************************************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Stoves mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> >> >> > -- Sent from my mobile device David Whitfield V. Executive Director CEDESOL Foundation _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/
