Frank, Crispin and all,
For Frank's needs in testing labs in affluent countries, the suggested
methods could include the following (combining thoughts from several
contributors):
1. Dry Ice (solid CO2), Can be weighed if the CO2 is an issue.
Worth a try, but watch out for the expansion of the gases. (Usually
cooling involves contraction, but the dry ice will greatly expand.)
2. ALUMINUM disks or squares or washers. Ball have undesirable
thickness. Flat will take the heat quickly. And can be separated
easily and re-weighed if suspected char dust clinging to the objects is
a quantity of concern (unlikely).
For testing labs without access to dry ice (distribution or financial
limitations), consider the aluminum flat objects. These can be made
easily in any developing country. Melting of aluminum drink-cans will
do the job.
Also, ceramic "snuffer containers" (such as Paul Olivier's) might be
designed to receive the aluminum pieces and allow tumbling (the ceramic
will take some of the heat) and then be placed in a container with water
to further pull away the heat. Having written this, I now add: Why
bother with the weight and fragility of ceramics? Just get a metal
container (aluminum could be superior) with an appropriate lid and even
a know weight. Cooled and can be weighted inside the container.
Paul (in Kampala)
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: [email protected] Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 12/4/2012 6:41 PM, Frank Shields wrote:
Ron,
I think there is a misunderstanding of my intent. The method I use in
the lab is intended for just measuring the energy at a snap shot of
time (WBT test ends) and then dumping the char in the dumpster. What
you and others mention is another subject (quenching char for sale).
The cost of water, nitrogen, argon, CO2 and other gases are a
non-issue for the small amount we would use and we make up the cost
from the clients wanting the tests.
Thanks
Frank
*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2012 3:57 PM
*To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
*Cc:* Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Frank Shields; Elisha Moore-Delate
*Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
List and ccs
I haven't seen mentioned today a possible approach that might
solve some of the indicated problems for extinguishing a char-making
batch stove. This is the same that I mentioned to a smaller group a
day or so ago. The idea would be to use a rock dust that one might
want anyway for improving the char's soil augmentation properties.
Some rock dusts are like biochar - carbon negative (as an oxide,
hydroxide, sulfate etc changes with time over to a carbonate).
It would be simple to weigh (maybe just measure the volume of) the
rock dust placed on top of the hot char to block air flow. If char
is eligible for carbon credits, then the combination should be worth
even more (the exact ratio of credits needs work).
A white "quenching" powder might even get additional credits for
improving the albedo.
I think we are in agreement that we don't want to use water,
nitrogen (costly) or CO2 (costly), but I think dirt (or sand/clay, etc
- as suggested by Elisha) is also OK - as long as we weigh the amount
used to extinguish. When one needs to measure and characterize the
char, then a "vase" technique like Paul Olivier has suggested is
probably needed. But smothering a bed of char which something that
adds value to the char sounds easier to apply/manipulate than moving
the hot char.
I am assisting with a project to collect data on biochar and rock
dusts (and even better their use together) in field-performance. I'd
love to hear from anyone with such data.
Ron
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Sent: *Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:14:13 PM
*Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Use an aluminum plate!
One problem would be the size of the char and the fact there is
unburned torrefied wood inside some char. It won't crush easily. It is
a reason the error on the estimated heat value in the char is large.
Regards
Crispin
*From:*Stoves [mailto:[email protected]] *On
Behalf Of *Kevin
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:09 AM
*To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
*Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Dear Frank
What about 2 steel pie plates? Put char in one and cover with the other.
If char was very hot, to enhance cooling rate, set the bottom plate on
a paper towel soaked in water, and spray the top plate with a water mist.
Best wishes,
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
*From:*Frank Shields <mailto:[email protected]>
*To:*'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:*Tuesday, December 04, 2012 5:14 PM
*Subject:*Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Paul,
I like the vase. And having a pot of water on top collecting
'energy' as the WACW cools seems like a great method of measuring
energy loss during the cooling that can be added on to the values
determined from a ground and tested WACW. Wonder if that would
work - Crispin?
Frank
*From:*Stoves [mailto:[email protected]] *On
Behalf Of *Paul Olivier
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2012 12:41 PM
*To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
*Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Frank,
Getting an accurate dry weight of biochar is indispensable in
being able to sell it.
If we douse the biochar with water, then we no longer have an
accurate measurement of dry weight.
Also biochar right out of the gasifier contains valuable heat that
could be used in keeping food warm.
Therefore I designed a terracotta vase to contain the hot biochar.
A pot placed on top of the vase prevents oxygen from entering.
The vase shown in the drawing below can hold six liters of biochar.
This is the volume of rice hull biochar produced in my 150 gasifier.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Terrecotta%20Vase/Drawing/Terracotta%20Vase.pdf
Thanks.
Paul Olivier
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:20 AM, Frank Shields
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi Crispin,
Weighing the fuel when removed (hot and burning) and dry weight after
soaking with water, draining (screen) and drying is not a convenient
procedure to determine moisture left -and prone to error - but
only method I
can think of at the moment.
Water puts out a fire by taking away its heat. So wondering if
there is
another method that could be used? Combination nitrogen gas and
pieces of
steel in a tumbler? Must be some way besides water.
Frank
Frank Shields
Control Laboratories, Inc.
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
www.biocharlab.com <http://www.biocharlab.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: Stoves [mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:26 AM
To: Stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
Dear Frank
You are on the right track, in my view. The assumed energy for the
wood and
char is a major source of imprecision in the test.
As for quenching with water: unfortunately we need to know the
residual
moisture content of the fuel 'as removed'. That varies a lot
depending on
the stove type. Quenching it with nitrogen is an alternative.
Regards
Crispin
-----Original Message-----
From: "Frank Shields" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sender: "Stoves" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:19:39
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves'<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves
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--
Paul A. Olivier PhD
27/2 Phu Dong Tieng Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
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