I would be wary of using aluminum - it melts around 660 C and the char in gasifier stoves can well exceed this temperature.
Josh On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 12:17 AM, Paul Anderson <[email protected]> wrote: > Frank, Crispin and all, > > For Frank's needs in testing labs in affluent countries, the suggested > methods could include the following (combining thoughts from several > contributors): > > 1. Dry Ice (solid CO2), Can be weighed if the CO2 is an issue. > Worth a try, but watch out for the expansion of the gases. (Usually > cooling involves contraction, but the dry ice will greatly expand.) > > 2. ALUMINUM disks or squares or washers. Ball have undesirable > thickness. Flat will take the heat quickly. And can be separated easily > and re-weighed if suspected char dust clinging to the objects is a quantity > of concern (unlikely). > > For testing labs without access to dry ice (distribution or financial > limitations), consider the aluminum flat objects. These can be made > easily in any developing country. Melting of aluminum drink-cans will do > the job. > > Also, ceramic "snuffer containers" (such as Paul Olivier's) might be > designed to receive the aluminum pieces and allow tumbling (the ceramic > will take some of the heat) and then be placed in a container with water to > further pull away the heat. Having written this, I now add: Why bother > with the weight and fragility of ceramics? Just get a metal container > (aluminum could be superior) with an appropriate lid and even a know > weight. Cooled and can be weighted inside the container. > > Paul (in Kampala) > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD" > Email: [email protected] Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 > Website: www.drtlud.com > > On 12/4/2012 6:41 PM, Frank Shields wrote: > > Ron, **** > > I think there is a misunderstanding of my intent. The method I use in the > lab is intended for just measuring the energy at a snap shot of time (WBT > test ends) and then dumping the char in the dumpster. What you and others > mention is another subject (quenching char for sale). The cost of water, > nitrogen, argon, CO2 and other gases are a non-issue for the small amount > we would use and we make up the cost from the clients wanting the tests. * > *** > > ** ** > > Thanks**** > > ** ** > > Frank**** > > ** ** > > *From:* [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]<[email protected]>] > > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2012 3:57 PM > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > *Cc:* Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Frank Shields; Elisha Moore-Delate > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves**** > > ** ** > > List and ccs > > I haven't seen mentioned today a possible approach that might solve > some of the indicated problems for extinguishing a char-making batch > stove. This is the same that I mentioned to a smaller group a day or so > ago. The idea would be to use a rock dust that one might want anyway for > improving the char's soil augmentation properties. Some rock dusts are > like biochar - carbon negative (as an oxide, hydroxide, sulfate etc changes > with time over to a carbonate). > > It would be simple to weigh (maybe just measure the volume of) the > rock dust placed on top of the hot char to block air flow. If char is > eligible for carbon credits, then the combination should be worth even > more (the exact ratio of credits needs work). > > A white "quenching" powder might even get additional credits for > improving the albedo. > > I think we are in agreement that we don't want to use water, nitrogen > (costly) or CO2 (costly), but I think dirt (or sand/clay, etc - as > suggested by Elisha) is also OK - as long as we weigh the amount used to > extinguish. When one needs to measure and characterize the char, then a > "vase" technique like Paul Olivier has suggested is probably needed. But > smothering a bed of char which something that adds value to the char sounds > easier to apply/manipulate than moving the hot char. > > I am assisting with a project to collect data on biochar and rock dusts > (and even better their use together) in field-performance. I'd love to > hear from anyone with such data. > > Ron**** > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" < > [email protected]> > *Sent: *Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:14:13 PM > *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves > > > **** > > Use an aluminum plate!**** > > **** > > One problem would be the size of the char and the fact there is unburned > torrefied wood inside some char. It won’t crush easily. It is a reason the > error on the estimated heat value in the char is large.**** > > **** > > Regards**** > > Crispin**** > > **** > > **** > > *From:* Stoves > [mailto:[email protected]<[email protected]>] > *On Behalf Of *Kevin > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:09 AM > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves**** > > **** > > Dear Frank**** > > **** > > What about 2 steel pie plates? Put char in one and cover with the other.** > ** > > **** > > If char was very hot, to enhance cooling rate, set the bottom plate on a > paper towel soaked in water, and spray the top plate with a water mist. ** > ** > > **** > > Best wishes,**** > > **** > > Kevin**** > > ----- Original Message ----- **** > > *From:* Frank Shields <[email protected]> **** > > *To:* 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<[email protected]> > **** > > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2012 5:14 PM**** > > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves**** > > **** > > Paul,**** > > **** > > I like the vase. And having a pot of water on top collecting ‘energy’ as > the WACW cools seems like a great method of measuring energy loss during > the cooling that can be added on to the values determined from a ground and > tested WACW. Wonder if that would work - Crispin? **** > > **** > > Frank**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > *From:* Stoves > [mailto:[email protected]<[email protected]>] > *On Behalf Of *Paul Olivier > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2012 12:41 PM > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves**** > > **** > > Frank, > > Getting an accurate dry weight of biochar is indispensable in being able > to sell it. > If we douse the biochar with water, then we no longer have an accurate > measurement of dry weight. > Also biochar right out of the gasifier contains valuable heat that could > be used in keeping food warm. > > Therefore I designed a terracotta vase to contain the hot biochar. > A pot placed on top of the vase prevents oxygen from entering. > The vase shown in the drawing below can hold six liters of biochar. > This is the volume of rice hull biochar produced in my 150 gasifier. > > https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22013094/150%20Gasifier/Terrecotta%20Vase/Drawing/Terracotta%20Vase.pdf > > Thanks. > Paul Olivier > > **** > > On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:20 AM, Frank Shields <[email protected]> > wrote:**** > > Hi Crispin, > > Weighing the fuel when removed (hot and burning) and dry weight after > soaking with water, draining (screen) and drying is not a convenient > procedure to determine moisture left -and prone to error - but only method > I > can think of at the moment. > Water puts out a fire by taking away its heat. So wondering if there is > another method that could be used? Combination nitrogen gas and pieces of > steel in a tumbler? Must be some way besides water. > > Frank > > > Frank Shields > Control Laboratories, Inc. > 42 Hangar Way > Watsonville, CA 95076 > (831) 724-5422 tel > (831) 724-3188 fax > www.biocharlab.com > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stoves [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Crispin Pemberton-Pigott > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:26 AM > To: Stoves > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves > > Dear Frank > > You are on the right track, in my view. The assumed energy for the wood and > char is a major source of imprecision in the test. > > As for quenching with water: unfortunately we need to know the residual > moisture content of the fuel 'as removed'. That varies a lot depending on > the stove type. Quenching it with nitrogen is an alternative. > > Regards > Crispin > -----Original Message----- > From: "Frank Shields" <[email protected]> > Sender: "Stoves" <[email protected]> > Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:19:39 > To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<[email protected] > > > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > <[email protected]> > Subject: [Stoves] Equipment required for testing stoves > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > .org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists%0A.org> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > .org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists%0A.org> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/**** > > > > > -- > Paul A. Olivier PhD > 27/2 Phu Dong Tieng Vuong > Dalat > Vietnam > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam) > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam) > Skype address: Xpolivier > http://www.esrla.com/**** > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/**** > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/**** > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web > pagehttp://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web > site:http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > -- Josh Kearns PhD Candidate Environmental Engineering Engineering for Developing Communities University of Colorado-Boulder Director of Science Aqueous Solutions www.aqsolutions.org Mobile: 720 989 3959 Skype: joshkearns
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