Frank, Ron and all,
The TYPES of stoves are important, and the key characteristics need to
be stated because there are now so many designs of Rocket stoves and
TLUD stoves and Charcoal stoves. But the actual stove name is only
important when it is a specific product or it is with detailed
drawings/plans so that others could reproduce it.
What is not needed are names on the experimental units.
It is important that we report some of the UNdesirable results, such as
the negative impact when air flows are excessive or too restricted.
Showing max and min and median-or-mean results of several tests is
useful, but does not fully help us get closer to the best results.
We will be using the testing equipment at Aprovecho Stove Camp this
summer (22 - 26 July) to zero in on what factors impact the emissions
and efficiencies in which ways in the TLUD stoves.
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: [email protected] Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 4/29/2013 7:06 PM, Frank Shields wrote:
Ron,
See below:
*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*Sent:* Monday, April 29, 2013 3:13 PM
*To:* Frank Shields
*Cc:* Jim Jetter; Hugh McLaughlin; Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves; Paul Anderson
*Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Truth in stove reports Re: FW: REQUEST for
complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.
Frank and ccs
Thanks. No problems with the following. My concern was that you
didn't believe the stove name should be released - and that seems not
to be the case.
I do believe the stove name should not be released - except to us.
Where the results will not be missed used. That is to use it for
marketing and not just for research information as it should.
You don't address this below, but I think this list should ask if all
6 of your steps are now adequately covered by GACC, Jim Jetter, the
WBT 4.2.1, and the other non-lab tests, that have many of the
characterstics of 4.2.1 I think they are, with the possible
exception of your step 5. I think time spent in tending to the stoves
is an important stove variable and should fit there. I think from
conversations with Jim that something new to report may be in the
works there.
Yes – the WBT as my understanding it from time back (I need to
revisit) does specify many of the variables.
I also think that the stove developer should be able to specify or
veto the fuel type (your 1 and 2). I don't know if that is always
possible now. At a minimum Jm etal should announce in advance the
types of fuels they can supply.
The stove developer should have no say as to how this test (WBT) is
conducted except for possible suggestions as to his findings to what
makes it work best. The purpose of this test is **research**. Like
what Dean and Larry did years ago to find the best gap above the pot
and the 10 stove rules. This test does little (unless redesigned) for
real world comparison as this procedure is only IN Box 3 and does not
include the outside variables (other boxes). Stove designers are doing
the researchers a favor to have them use their stoves for this
research. For example: If Paul Anderson TLUD comes out much better
than another is it useless info (for the real world) and only useful
if the researcher goes the **extra step** to determine why. That
might be to fill the fire box with flowing sand to determine its
volume or measure air flow or, as Crispin is planning, to measure the
stack gas. Anything to give a clue or info where a change can make the
not-so-good stove the same as the good stove and the good stove better.
Last. I think I would prefer to see results for one stove use.
Why 1000 people (or stoves? or families?)? Are you recommending for
one day or one year. or?
You have emphasized fuel amounts (kg?) rather than energy
efficiency. OK to do both?
I just mention units of measure that are of real interest to the real
world, ‘Fuel required to live / person’/ time. Following the energy
from the fuel is what Crispin and Jim are doing (research to find the
best materials and optimum gaps and air-gas mixes etc.). That to
improve Box 3 (Stoves) that will lower the **fuel** required to
**live** per **day**. Using stoves supplied for the research they can
start by seeing what each stove can do then determine the reason one
is better over the other. Best of luck to them as it will not be easy
as we have seen all these years. They continue work done by Dean and
Larry and others but doing it on other types of stoves. At least
that’s the way I see it.
Thanks
Frank
Thanks
Frank Shields
BioChar Division
Control Laboratories, Inc.
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville, CE 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(81) 724-3188 fax
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
www.controllabs.com
Again, thanks.
Ron
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Frank Shields" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*To: *"Ron" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>, "Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>, "Paul Anderson"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc: *"Jim Jetter" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>, "Hugh McLaughlin"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Sent: *Monday, April 29, 2013 12:14:57 PM
*Subject: *RE: [Stoves] Truth in stove reports Re: FW: REQUEST for
complete sets of raw data of cookstove tests.
Ron and all,
<snip>
Can you tell us more of how to best get and use all of Jim's test
results? Any precedents in the
(your) testing world?
Ron
Working from the big picture we are trying to: ‘reduce the Fuel
required for living / 1000 people’.
To study ways to do this we need to get organized and control the
variables as we follow the energy from the fuel to the task. They are:
1: Fuel
2: fuel manipulation
3: stoves
4) utensil
5) utensil manipulation
6) task
If we work on and improve one of the six then the total fuel required
is reduced per the 1000 people. And working in each group is what we
are doing but not in an organized manor. The stoves being tested that
Paul is talking about is working within group three. Determining what
makes one stove better than another. Making better briquettes is group
one and stating fuel placed in a stove vertical works better than
horizontal is group two. So to answer your question: I would like to
see in the report that Jim produces 1) chemical and physical
properties and a description of the fuel used during testing and 2)
the frequency and manipulation of the fuel when added to each stove
tested along with the 3) Stove (name and designer etc.) 4) utensils
used, 5) water stirring frequency etc and 6) results of the Task. So
NOT a BIG DEAL!
Then if there are different results found at Stove Camp than what Jim
reports we have a chance of looking through the conditions and,
perhaps, determine the cause.
Also; When stove users determine one size fraction or moisture content
or how best to introduce fuel to a stove makes a difference in results
– send that info to the appropriate group. As that is a parameter that
should be included in a test package. If it is observed in the ‘real
world’ people will only do something one way – send that info to the
group working on that section. That is when(if) we get these groups in
place!
I suggest Paul bring to Stove Camp a handful of biomass used at a
location where he wants to sell his stove and make sure the report
from Stove Camp reports the six parameters. He will be able to show
results based on ‘real’ fuel.
Also: I don’t get into all this following the energy stuff and how to
calculate in the char etc. If someone needs char and has a use for it
– that is ‘required for living’. If when cooking the house overheats
so the front door is kept open that is no different than cooking in
winter and closing the front door – ‘required for living’.
Thanks for asking! Sometimes I think I am only talking to myself. : )
Regards
Frank
Thanks
Frank Shields
BioChar Division
Control Laboratories, Inc.
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville, CE 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(81) 724-3188 fax
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
www.controllabs.com <http://www.controllabs.com>
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