Tom, Dennis, all, Dennis Tester writes: "We know in our guts that the Islamic terrorists are going to strike somewhere in this country between now and the elections." Let us not forget that the last significant terrorism attack before 9/11 was perpetrated by white men (though the FBI was looking for a Middle Eastern Muslim man), Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. It is fair (and NOT hateful) to say that there are undercurrents of racism undergirding the Bush Administration's (and even the Pawlenty Administration's) use of the war on terrorism to enact ever-stricter immigration laws and anti-privacy laws, to dubious effect (this is not specific to St. Paul, so I won't go into it here, but please email me outside of the forum if anyone wishes to discuss further). So, Dennis, I respectfully disagree--we do not KNOW that Islamic terrorists are going to strike in this country between now and the elections (though a different "October surprise" is another question entirely). I do not think broad characterizations like "left wing media" being applied to ABC, WCCO, ABC, WCCO, NBC, CBS, MPR, NPR, CNN, etc. do much to elevate the debate on this forum. Please cite evidence if anyone wishes to make this argument. Tom Thompson wrote: "Why a 'pissed off Iraqi'? Because we were too slow to act over in Iraq to save their family from slaughter at the hands of a cruel dictator, Saddam Hussein? We should have finished the battle under Bush 41, but that was his mistake and he lost the election after that."
The United States government has also sponsored/supported terrorists, including Saddam Hussein, and trains terrorists at the School of Americas (now the Western Hemispheric Institute for Security Cooperation) with taxpayer dollars at Ft. Benning, GA. This is relevant particularly as the United States continues to fund and support despots around the world. As a bumper sticker aptly stated, "We're creating enemies faster than we can kill them." Tom Thompson wrote: "The people using terror cannot be just given a pass with the words, "method of either resistance, protest, desperation or war". They are criminals, they are terrorists. They use bombs and kill innocent people and children and use fear of such an attack as their weapon." Can the actions of the United States hold up to the same scrutiny? As I understand it, this Administration barely knows how many military casualties there were of this war, let alone civilian casualties. This is to say nothing of wedding parties and the like being bombed in Afghanistan. As to whether or not a terrorist attack could happen in St. Paul---and back to listserv germanness---our President was unable to say whether or not a terrorist attack would happen even after receiving a daily briefing paper entitled "Al Quaeda determined to attack US," so it seems a bit beyond me how members on this forum could possibly know how vulnerable we are or are not to such attacks. In my opinion, what we should be much more afraid for are policies that strip us of our civil liberties and target the most vulnerable among us--as Governor Pawlenty is trying to do by pressuring the St. Paul City Council to rescind its INS/City Separation Ordinance--in the name of security. Both Chief Finney and Minneapolis Police Chief Wm. McManus are on record as supporting the INS Separation Ordinance; it seems, then, that the ordinance doesn't have much to do with actual security and much more to do with election year politics. Hopefully, we would apply the same degree of scrutiny to measures proposed on the city, state and federal levels designed to keep us safe---at the expense of the very freedoms we seek to protect. Erin Stojan Ward 7, Dayton's Bluff Tom & Elsa Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Terrorism is a tactic, but it is also a religious philosophy. Suicide bombing and martyrdom are taught in Islamic Mosques and schools. A suicide bomber is taught that they will get to heaven and have 21 virgins waiting for them. Now, this is not that every Muslim is a terrorist, only that terrorism is accepted and promoted in some Muslim communities and countries. But, it has been mainly a Muslim method of attacking innocent civilians since the 1972 Olympics in Munich. The GOP is not the one who started "banging the drum" about an attack prior to the elections. It was the left wing media (ABC, WCCO, NBC, CBS, MPR, NPR, CNN, etc) that brought it up when Spain acquiesced to a terror attack just days before their elections. This message of an attack before the elections has been harped on by every major network, right and left leaning since. Yes, the Chechnyians want a change in government where they live. However, that would be like saying the blue states and red states here should use terror against each other. Terrorism is wrong no matter what, no matter where. To use acts of terror on innocent civilians (and especially children) in Israel or Russia is wrong. We should condemn it and use all means at our disposal to stop it. The people using terror cannot be just given a pass with the words, "method of either resistance, protest, desperation or war". They are criminals, they are terrorists. They use bombs and kill innocent people and children and use fear of such an attack as their weapon. Reagan may have called them "freedom fighters" I can't say that is true, however, Reagan nor any GOP member every advocated the use of terrorist tactics against civilians. Why a "pissed off Iraqi"? Because we were too slow to act over in Iraq to save their family from slaughter at the hands of a cruel dictator, Saddam Hussein? We should have finished the battle under Bush 41, but that was his mistake and he lost the election after that. We in St Paul and the metro area have to worry. We have had a large a number of arrests of "suspected" terrorists in the area. It may be a coincidence, but then again it may not. Tom Thompson Como Park Original Message: Tim, fear is the best thing going for the GOP, so don't think for a second that the beating of the drum is going to do anything but get louder before the election. Terrorism is a tactic, it is not a philosophy, a religion or a political persuasion. The GOP and the right wing news media (and even more so the far right wing news media) blurs the lines between the tactic of terrorism and the multitude of organizations that use terror as a method of either resistance, protest, desperation or war. In Russia the Chechnyan's have been attempting to acquire independence since the Soviet Union collapsed. Their lands became occupied by the Russian's during the early 1800's. The Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and several other white Christian principalities all achieved their independence from the Soviet Union during the collapse of the communist regime, with the open backing of the United States and the European community. Chechnya has not had the same support. I am sure that the fear is that we don't want any small Islamic states operating on Russia's door step and that as Chechnya goes so goes the rest of the region. But, the Chechnyans aren't going to come over here and blow up a school. They want independence from Russia! Are there links between Alkida and the Chechnyans? Maybe, but as they use to say there are only six degrees of separation between any two people. I know its, hard and I know the news outlets (CBS, NBC, ABC) find it much to hard to differentiate between any two Arabs or any two followers of Islam, but watching the right wing froth at the mouth over the plight of the Russian's and link their troubles to ours, when only a few years ago Reagan called them freedom fighters is a bit of a twist. In the 80's, one of Reagan's tactics in fighting communism was to inspire nationalism in the Soviet Union. This is just one more of those "nations" fighting the Imperial Soviet Union/Russia. They aren't coming over to blow up a junior high (not to say that some pissed off Iraqi wouldn't, but we know they are all throwing flowers at us). Chuck Repke Saint Paul _____________________________________________ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ ------------------------------------------------------- **VOTE TUESDAY, NOV. 2!** To register: Contact your county election office, or the Secretary of State at http://www.sos.state.mn.us/ General info: http://www.e-democracy.org "In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." -Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968) ------------------------------------------ Erin Stojan Dayton's Bluff, Ward 7 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! 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