Mike,
I think it really depends on your requirements and the skill level of your
developers. I personally would be careful about trying to learn and combine
two frameworks, even if they serve two different purposes. Even though
frameworks can be helpful, many times they can frustrate the development
process. Even though I am a supporter of Struts, there is a learning curve,
and it can be big depending on what you are trying to do. Most of my
learning curve with Struts was trying to learn it the right way. I to
agreee with the statement struts is somewhat independent of J2EE. The great
thing about Struts is that it is very flexible, and of course it is open
source.
One word of advice on your data layer, I would highly recommend staying away
from entity beans (Most developers that I have talked to do not use them,
and for a very good reason). I recommend using JDBC in your session beans
for updating, and data access beans for read only access. That is if
performance is important to you. If you take this approach, you will be
free to do whatever you want.
For whatever its worth,
Kent
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Nash [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 7:45 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Any Struts User uses the Expresso Framework ?
Martin (and all):
> > But
> > you would be creaking and struggling if you did not piggy bank
> > Struts with J2EE features.
>
> Sorry, but I disagree completely. Whether or not Struts is an appropriate
> framework for any given project is completely independent of
> whether J2EE is
> or is not useful on that project.
I'd have to agree that the "to J2EE or not J2EE" question is often a
concern - I've been experimenting for some time with some techniques for
"deferring" that decision - e.g. allowing the ability to develop a project
"non-j2ee", then scale up to J2EE without any major re-writing.
What we've been doing is working on a way to deploy our "Controller" objects
(basically a collection of Action objects) as a session bean, and our
"DBObjects" (the object/relational mapping classes in Expresso) as entity
beans. You could then write your application using DBObjects and Controllers
and Struts, then deploy it in one case with only a servlet/jsp engine, and
in a more usage-intensive case in a full J2EE/clustered environment -
without recoding anything.
Given the capabilities to crank out the logic & UI that are so strong in
Struts, it seemed to me that it would be a perfect fit with this effort in
Expresso - that's one of the reasons we started in on integrating Struts in
the first place.
I'd appreciate any input/suggestions along these lines - as Pete pointed out
in a later email, we're not into re-inventing any wheels :-)
Regards,
Mike
Jcorporate Ltd.
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Pilgrim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 10:51 AM
> Subject: RE: Any Struts User uses the Expresso Framework ?
>
>
> >
> > What I was trying to say was metaphorically speaking
> > comparing different boxing weight divisions.
> >
> > Raw JSP Servlets is featherweight
> >
> > Struts is a light weight flyweight
> >
> > Expresso is medium weight
> >
> > WebSphere / Oracle AS / JBoss / Enhydra / BEA are heavy weight
> > because they guarantee Enterprise level features. (You can usually
> > start with a raw standard "J2EE Server" then buy extras like
> > a personalisation server or portal server.)
> >
> > What I am saying is just because you are using Struts that you cant
> > write an enterprise level portal site like `support.dell.com'. But
> > you would be creaking and struggling if you did not piggy bank
> > Struts with J2EE features.
> >
> > The increase of scale goes up (ie the weight) with what the framework
> > can do. You can have high level of security, transaction integrity,
> > and business confidence if you choose one of J2EE app server with
> > the supplementary portal product.
> >
> > I like what I see of Struts so far. It is lightweight it is at the level
> > of "intermediate web application development". It is easy to get
> > into. It is popular , because are two Wrox books about it already
> > "Programming JSP 2nd Edition" and "Web App Prog 1st Edition" (I think?).
> > Best of all it is an MVC framework that works, although it is not
> > a mission critical piece of firmware.
> >
> > The last part is important because my boss, and his boss, and his boss
> > want to know that my development ideas are sound. I can see the
> > "Cost/Benefit" memo wafting over to me now.
> >
> > Any one want to add categories for a super heavy division?
> >
> > --
> > Peter Pilgrim | | ++44 (0)207-545-9923
> > .... \ \ ___ / / ... .
> > - ---- ( * ) --- --
> > _____________________________Cafe_Savannah,_San Antonio,Ibiza__
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------- Message
> History ----------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > From: Peter Pilgrim/DMGIT/DMG UK/DeuBa@DMG UK on 30/08/2001 16:53
> >
> > Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > cc:
> > Subject: RE: Any Struts User uses the Expresso Framework ?
> >
> >
> >
> > It depends what you need in the end. I would say
> >
> > "Struts is a lighter weight framework for developing web applications"
> >
> > "Expresso is a medium weight framework developing database-driven
> > web applications"
> >
> > If you do not need to scalability, distributable server,
> transaction safe,
> > robust, component architecture then you dont need
> > an J2EE application server.
> >
> > If you do need talk to database often, need a lot of grunt taken
> > out of writing your own object to relational table mapping. If
> > you also want dont want to write your own security. If you want
> > security already for your servlets, actions, then I'd say
> > Expresso is worth looking for.
> >
> > If you want to roll your security, user profile, and have simple
> > requirements for mapping objects to database table, can
> > live a basic form security, which roll on on your won,
> > then you can live with Struts.
> >
> > The problem web app is that the technology is moving
> > faster. First there were Servlet, then JSPs, and now
> > we have frameworks. It's the old trade off issues again
> > "time to market, time to customers" you decide. I know I dont
> > want to go back to pure Java Servlets again in hurry. That's my word.
> > --
> > Peter Pilgrim | | ++44 (0)207-545-9923
> > .... \ \ ___ / / ... .
> > - ---- ( * ) --- --
> > _____________________________Cafe_Savannah,_San Antonio,Ibiza__
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------- Message
> History ----------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > From: Robert Domachevsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 30/08/2001 11:39 AST
> >
> > Please respond to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > To: Peter Pilgrim/DMGIT/DMG UK/DeuBa@DMG UK
> > cc: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: RE: Any Struts User uses the Expresso Framework ?
> >
> >
> > Hello Peter,
> >
> > I run a small shop which has been learning Expresso. I am concerned
> about
> > the duplication of functionality and resulting confusion
> between Expresso
> > 4.0 and Struts that Pete Carapetyan expressed in his message a few days
> > ago. Being a core contributer to Expresso do you have any
> comments. I am
> > starting to think that maybe I am better off just using Struts
> because of
> > the much larger interest in Struts vs Expresso.
> >
> > Bob Domachevsky
> > Ansco
> > 514.488.2020
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Peter Pilgrim [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 12:07 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Any Struts User uses the Expresso Framework ?
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > Now that I was __bloodied__ my fingers with raw jakarta Struts.
> > It 's looking quite good. I can feel the power.
> >
> > I wonder if any struts users are using the Expresso Framework 4.0 ea
> > which integrates the Struts Release 1.0. I am a Core contributer
> > with Expresso Framework so that why I am asking.
> >
> > http://www.xenonsoft.demon.co.uk/products/java.html
> > http://www.jcorporate.com/
> > --
> > Sun Certified Java 2 Programmer, Senior Systems Analyst,
> > OTC Derivatives IT, Deutsche Bank UK, 1-133 Houndsditch,
> > London, EC3A 7DX England
> >
> > Peter Pilgrim | | ++44 (0)207-545-9923
> > .... \ \ ___ / / ... .
> > - ---- ( * ) --- --
> > _____________________________Cafe_Savannah,_San Antonio,Ibiza__
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged
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> > please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged
> information. If you
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged
> information. If you
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