Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???

Wed, 18 Jun 2003 00:39:15 -0700

You're right about the lack of a View aspect, but when I was working as a VB developer, there were alot of n-tier app developers around, writing business rules in VB COM objects, sometimes with minimal coding in ASP. There are huge user lists, like [EMAIL PROTECTED] and so on, just as busy if not busier than this list, with experts evangelising constantly on the need to adhere to sound programming principles.

I agree with Gartner.com's analysis - Java and .NET are more or less equal in many different departments. I just feel I'm less likely to get shafted in the future if I go with Java.

Adam

James Mitchell wrote: 
You know, it's funny when I see people posting about comparing .Net with
Struts.  As a former Model 1-er (is that a word?) I couldn't agree more with
David's comments.  All of an application's logic is embedded within the same
files that handle the display of html/xhtml/xml/whatever.  In the ASP/PHP
worlds, there is no concept of a "controller".

I get so tired of hearing of this "Struts version of PHP or ASP".
Sorry guys, you just can't build a controller with a "page by page"
scripting technology.

Why can't you build a controller?
I'll tell you why:
    * You can't build a controller, because there's absolutely no
      concept of what java calls a "servlet" in IIS-land.

    * You can't haphazardly map different patterns (*.do, *.struts,
      /myapp/*) without physically doing so in the management console
      (they're called filters).
      And even if you do that you still need to build and register
      your component (dll) with the system registry (although there are a
      few tricks around that).

    * ASP/COM is like JSP/JavaBeans except everything in ASP is of
      type "Variant" so you must code your component to handle
      all type conversion safely.  (sound familiar?)

    * The best form handling that I've seen with ASP was on a project
      where every single form was posted to a common ASP file which
      created a Scripting.Dictionary Object (similar in concept to a
      collection), loaded all the request parameters, stuck
      it into the session, and then sent a redirect to some processing
      page (let's call this the business tier, but it's still just a
      damn ASP page), which then redirected to a final ASP page (shit,
      I guess that would be called the "view".....LOL).

The best you can hope for is having someone on the team with enough
foresight to put together the common tasks (db connection, common functions)
in one or more include files that get used on every page.


James



----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 7:39 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???



I don't think that the current ASP .NET model is too far off of the

MVC

path. Mostly I think that MVC isn't enforced, but the foundation is
inherently there.

If I had to do a mapping from struts to ASP .NET I would put things

like

this:

.jsp --> .aspx
ActionForm --> Code behind page of .aspx
Action --> Code behind page of .aspx
Model --> any .NET classes or Com objects that your Code behind page

calls.

If you peruse some of the Microsoft-related public mailing lists, you'll
note that code-behind pages are not universally popular among Microsoft
based developers -- it seems that more than a few people like to code
things directly in their ASP pages, instead of having any separation.

In other words, it's the old "Model 1 or Model 2" debate again :-) 

I'd like to say that Java developers have advanced passed that point but
that debate seems to reoccur too often.  The last time I debated it, it
became clear that developers who have felt the pain of inheriting Model 1

or

scripted projects agree with MVC principals; those who have worked on

small,

one person projects don't see anything wrong with Model 1.

David


Craig

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