On 8/25/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
True, but the opennet isn't illegal.
I'm not in any way saying the darknet shouldn't be added...it's a
great feature...but freenet has always been an opennet, and that
should be done first. People who want a darknet are probably already
using other programs like Waste. If they start thinking about making
the opennet form of freenet illegal, we'll know long before it
happens. And there will be plenty of people (EFF, ACLU, etc) fighting
it. I realize there are other countries where they can't use an
opennet, but like I said, there are other darknet programs out there.
That's not what freenet is.

Waste doesn't scale nearly as well as freenet 0.7 so there is a reason
to do it. Besides, if we don't get a darknet it'll all be a wasted
effort in a few years when they outlaw freenet for some reason which I
believe will happen and I'd be surprised if it take more than 5 more
years.


On 8/24/06, Lars Juel Nielsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 8/24/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "As I see it 0.7 relies on a bunch of people hooking up by sharing node
> > information. I may be a part of a freenet 0.7 network that consists of less
> > than 20 people. Out there somewhere else is another group of people, but
> > that group might be 100 people. Unless someone in the 2 groups makes a
> > connection, shares node information, the 2 groups don't talk to each other.
> > Making matters worse, the only connection they have is through that one
> > shared connection. There is no redundancy. Am I wrong in this assumption?"
> >
> > Yup...pretty much. That's why so many people refuse to switch to 0.7
> > until there's a working opennet. I'm one of them. With an opennet, you
> > connect to anyone who's online, with multiple connections. Don't have
> > to trade references and you get a lot more connections with no effort.
>
> What will you do when freenet is made illegal and all the nodes are
> being harvested and blocked by a national firewall? Then the whole
> network fall apart, this can not happen with a darknet if it's done
> right. To take down a darknet you have to find participants and trick
> them to letting you in and then you can start finding out which hosts
> are part of it.
>
> It's a lot easier, cheaper and faster to take down an opennet than a darknet.
>
> > Not totally sure about the 'if the one node linking them dies you lose
> > all that data' part...seems like that's how it'd be handled, but I
> > haven't looked into 0.7 too much...because it has no opennet, so I
> > have no use for it.
> >
> > On 8/24/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > What about a pipe to the 0.5 freenet from 0.7 that allows access to the
> > > data? A 1-way street. 0.7 can add  data to the 0.7 freenet, but can and to
> > > the 0.5 freenet. Only access the data. From what I have gathered,
> > > 'inserting' data into freenet is not a quick task.
> > >
> > > As I see it 0.7 relies on a bunch of people hooking up by sharing node
> > > information. I may be a part of a freenet 0.7 network that consists of 
less
> > > than 20 people. Out there somewhere else is another group of people, but
> > > that group might be 100 people. Unless someone in the 2 groups makes a
> > > connection, shares node information, the 2 groups don't talk to each 
other.
> > > Making matters worse, the only connection they have is through that one
> > > shared connection. There is no redundancy. Am I wrong in this assumption?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >Reply-To: support@freenetproject.org
> > > >To: support@freenetproject.org
> > > >Subject: Re: [freenet-support] Freenet 0,5 and 0,7
> > > >Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:01:46 -0400
> > > >
> > > >Freenet 0.5 is an opennet. You connect to any random node that happens
> > > >to be on. Freenet 0.7 doesn't have this yet. In 0.7, there is no main
> > > >network. There might be now, but the idea of the way it currently is
> > > >setup is to allow small groups to connect without connecting to
> > > >everyone else. Pretty much, there's nowhere for the content to go.
> > > >It'd be like trying to move everything on the internet to your local
> > > >LAN.
> > > >That, and it's just a complete program re-write I believe. It's quite
> > > >easy to 'convert' the content...open a page, save it, and then
> > > >re-upload it. The data stores work differently, and anyways the data
> > > >is distributed, so there wouldn't be any easy way to move it over.
> > > >
> > > >On 8/24/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >>I've got a question for the developers.
> > > >>
> > > >>First a couple of comments.
> > > >>
> > > >>I've been watching the thread 0.5 vs 0.7, and although you want to move 
it
> > > >>somewhere else I welcome it.
> > > >>
> > > >>I brought up 0.7 about 5 days ago. It's been running ever since, I 
think.
> > > >>I
> > > >>don't monitor the PC that it is on, but I do see activity on the router
> > > >>port
> > > >>for the PC. I didn't much like the idea of asking people to let me 
access
> > > >>Freenet through them, but I did. I still think that is a good idea to 
gain
> > > >>initial access to Freenet, but after that it should go find other nodes
> > > >>and
> > > >>establish connections to them. I shouldn't have to always rely on the 
ones
> > > >>that were on IRC chat at the time I decided to set up the application.
> > > >>
> > > >>That said, here is by question.
> > > >>
> > > >> >From what I've seen here, there is a huge base of Freenet users on 
0.5,
> > > >>and
> > > >>a large amount of content. What I fail to understand is why going to
> > > >>version
> > > >>0.7 all of that userbase and content was dropped. Why there was no way 
to
> > > >>connect to that Freenet and have access to the users and the content. 
I've
> > > >>tried to think of an example of some other internet application that 
made
> > > >>such a radical change that the entire existing base was dropped, and 
quite
> > > >>frankly I can't come up with one. I've seen application for my PC change
> > > >>so
> > > >>radically the data from the old application had to be converted before 
it
> > > >>would work, but a migration path was always provided. Developers, why 
did
> > > >>you do that?
> > > >>
> > > >>I'm new to the Freenet community, and I find it incredulous that years 
of
> > > >>effort involved with building the Freenet community was abandoned
> > > >>completely. What you have created is a 0.5 and a 0.7 Freenet; both will
> > > >>exist into the future. Just as many security conscious people quit
> > > >>upgrading
> > > >>PGP after 6.52 because source code was no longer readily available, many
> > > >>people will quit upgrading Freenet after 0.5. The difference is with 
PGP a
> > > >>file encrypted with 6.52 can be read by the newer versions. Freenet has
> > > >>isolated all of it's previous userbase and content.
> > > >>
> > > >>There is a saying, "Throwing out the baby with the bath water." You have
> > > >>done just that.
> > > >>
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