The problem is that the bankers convince the farmers that they need 
the most modern equipment, and operating practices to compete, and 
any farmer who has debt will tell you that it is not fun... In my own 
experience, I can tell you that if a farmer wants to make money, he 
must not conform to what the bankers and universities tell him to do 
to make money, but see for himself what the animals and soil are 
telling him.  A farmer who abuses his animals will not make any money 
that is obvious... but if a farmer feeds his animals high protein, 
high corn, low forage diets, in essence he's doing the "right thing" 
according to the university and banker to get the high yield in milk, 
or meat, but the animal isn't designed to eat that diet, it will get 
sick, and "burnout"  so why isn't this considered abuse?

Notice the dairy farms in California where they feed the hell out of 
the animals, give them all the modern drugs and hormone treatments, 
then wonder why they are culling out animals after only one year of 
milking, creating a huge shortage of youngstock (if the cows don't 
have calves, where do new cows come from?)  It has been proven that a 
cow will give more milk with less inputs as it gets older and has 
more calves.  But it is easier, with super large herds (and seems to 
be the general philosophy with large businesses) to just get what you 
can now and who cares if the animal's immune system goes to hell, and 
whether it has a heart and liver 4 times the size it should be?  
That's the problem with modern agriculture!  Man wants it now... and 
will do anything to get it.

To take care of your animals, and not listen when the 
banker/university study says you have to expand will be the best way 
to go because healthy animals will give you healthy milk/meat, and 
they will also reproduce healthily!  More cows= more money, and if 
you can do this with less inputs, then you make money (but the key is 
that you have to resist the urge to borrow money and get in debt 
because once you're in debt, the tendency is to borrow more to get 
out of debt and you just get deeper.  

I ask you:  Look for a farmer who is not in debt and tell me if he 
isn't making money (sure not millions, but he's making a living).


> Harmon
> I have always believed that studies show the politics of the 
payee.  In my world anyways, small farmers are at a very large 
disadvange.  Many years ago I was a dairy farmer.  I started out with 
20 cows.  Went good for a few years, then had to buy 10 more cows, 
then 10 more and then 10 more.  Finally said the hell with it when 
Reagon got to be president and sold them all.
> Your study was done by someone who was paid to do it.  Small 
farmers are selling out by droves now.  They simply can't do it with 
the prices and costs the way they are.  All the studies in the world 
won't save all the guys in the High Plains Journal who are 
advertizing their farm sales. I have read them as well, I just know 
better from experience of living it.
> Regards
> George
> Harmon Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >   Seems like there was a post here just awhile back on a study 
done which showed big farms (and they weren't
> >talking about organic) just weren't able to make it as well as 
smaller farms, and IIRC, it was around the 200
> >acre point where things started going down. So sell some land, buy 
some cows and pigs and chickens and
> >diversify, get rid of the chemicals and giant (ultra-expensive) 
machinery. You'll make just as much money, live
> >longer, and be happier. Don't sell the corn, feed it to the pigs, 
or make ethanol, or -- whatever. It's a
> >ridiculous idea to farm corn when corn is the cheapest heating 
fuel on the market. 
> >   Sorry, George, I just don't have much sympathy for the American 
farmer, for the most part. I think if we can
> >get the gov't to stop all the crop subsidies and other forms of 
corporate welfare, the organic/chemical
> >arguement would end pretty quickly. Farmers have been conned, 
swindled, bamboozled, by the banks, the chemical
> >companies, ag agents, and ag schools (who all work for chemical 
companies essentially). 
> >   Hey, I saw the same thing happening in the logging industry -- 
guys got conned into buying all that new fancy
> >equipment then lost their shirt when NAFTA came along. The banker 
tried to talk me into it -- I didn't even ask
> >for a loan, he approached me. I just kept logging with my old 
crawler, and when the crunch came I just sold it
> >all and went back to school. I really like the way the Amish do 
it -- no debt. And they definitely do make
> >money, pay cash for their farms. 
> >   
> >
> >
> >
> >On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 04:50:56PM -0600, George & Lola Wesel 
> >> I would say that is a very fair question. If it was possible I 
> >> 
> >> I know several organic farmer and they don't laugh all the way 
to the 
> >> bank. That is just an image they would like everybody to 
believe. In 
> >> order to reach the production goals required by today financial 
> >> organic don't cut it.  Not even close.  Zero Input Sustainable 
> >> Agriculture (name used by the US government) is just a dream of 
> >> extreme left wing enviromentalist.  Looks good, sounds good but 
> >> feastable. You need to draw a clear line between those that do 
> >> farming with an acre or so and those who farm on the x,000 acres 
> >> To grow a couple of hundred corn plants on 1/2 acre and then 
petal the 
> >> roasting ears to people who you meet on the street is probably 
> >> profitable but your going to need a job on the side.  With a 
> >> population per acre and 1000 acres of corn that's 27,000,000 
> >> ears. This is but one big problem. The places that broker 
organic food 
> >> are not capable of handling large volume. The market just isn't 
their yet.
> >> 
> >> Do you have a clue how much manure it takes to equal 250 pounds 
of NH3. 
> >> The average amount of nirtrogen put on an acre of irrigated corn 
here in 
> >> KS. Or how many cows it would take to produce enough manure to 
> >> 1000 acres of irrigated corn. The reason I say irrigated is that 
> >> corn here in KS is a "iffy" crop at best. This doesn't even 
touch on the 
> >> labor required to load, haul, and spread the manure or the costs 
> >> involved. To use manure would not only be labor intensely, but 
> >> costly as well.  I would lose my butt big time to use all 
manure. They 
> >> say rotate your crops.  Yes, alfalfa does put a little nitrogen 
into the 
> >> soil.  But not nearly enough to grow 200 bu per acre corn. I do 
> >> my crops, especially my dryland crops but I do rotate my 
irrigated as 
> >> well.  To keep the chemical costs to a minmium. On a very small 
farm, an 
> >> acre or so, organic is the only way to go.  Their are organic 
farms up 
> >> to 100 acres or so.  But their not profitable, just diehard, 
> >> "Gonna do it organic" types.  They would do it even if they were 
> >> starving. If I can't produce in the 175 and up range then I 
won't be 
> >> here next year. Someone else will be farming my farm and he 
won't be 
> >> organic.
> >> 
> >> For chemicals their is no organic replacement.  They simplely 
let the 
> >> bugs chow down.  Diease is uncontrollable except by rotation. In 
> >> years like we had last year they don't raise a crop.  If organic 
> >> suddenly required by all governments in this world.  No one 
would be 
> >> able to buy enough food to live on.  It would simpley be a 
severe food 
> >> shortage.  As long as organic has conventional farmer to produce 
for the 
> >> masses then they can produce for the few (and growing) who buy 
> >> only. If everybody tried to buy organic only, their would be one 
hell of 
> >> a long line everywhere they sell food.
> >> 
> >> The simple fact is, organic is not ready to replace conventional 
> >> farming. Except on a small and local scale.
> >> 
> >> One last comparision.  I'm sure you don't like to buy gasoline 
for your 
> >> car or truck, whatever.  I'm sure you don't like to buy tires, 
oil, and 
> >> repairs or that you don't like the idea of being a part of the 
> >> that is generated in the world every day. So why don't you walk 
to work 
> >> everyday.  I'm sure their is people out their who do, but is it 
> >> feastable for everybody to walk.  Cut down on the gas 
comsumption of the 
> >> world, cut down on air pollution and get a lot of good exercise 
> >> addition but it's just not workable for the vast majority. So it 
is with 
> >> American agriculture. Organic farming cannot feed the world. For 
me to 
> >> switch would create such a severe income loss that it is not 
even a 
> >> remote option. Conventional ag needs the ag chemicals to produce 
> >> crop big enough to pay the bills by as few people (per farm) as 
> >> 
> >> To close, I'm sure their are places in the world where organic 
> >> on a larger scale than I am portraying here is possible, but 
they are 
> >> labor intensive. They just are not possible on a large scale and 
> >> agriculture is growing larger and larger on that scale.  It has 
to, our 
> >> fixed costs go up every year and the only way to cope is to get 
> >>   It is a vicious circle. Remember that question about "How many 
> >> would it take to fertilize 1000 acres of corn"  How many ton of 
poop can 
> >> you scope in a day?  While your scoping poop, who's going to be 
> >> bugs?
> >> 
> >> I hope I didn't bore you
> >> George
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > 
> >> >      So why don't you? There's plenty of totally organic 
farmers who are 
> >> > laughing all the way to the bank. You
> >> > too can end your chemical dependancy -- "Just say NO!"
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > -- 
> >> > Harmon Seaver     
> >> > CyberShamanix
> >> >
> >> > 
> >> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >> >
> >> > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> >> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >> > 
> >> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> >> > <>.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >>
> >> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> >> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >> 
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> >> 
> >
> >-- 
> >Harmon Seaver   
> >CyberShamanix
> >
> >
> -- 
> __________________________________________________________________
> Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. 
Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Stock for $4.
No Minimums.
FREE Money 2002.

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 

Reply via email to