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Blah...Blah...Blah...Blahhhh, ad infinitum ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 11:58 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: The Debate Over Diesel > >> >Certainly, no one argues with international automotive test > >> >findings that better fuel economy can be had with diesel/electric > >> >hybrids than with gasoline/electric hybrid vehicles. > >> > >> I do most certainly argue with this. I measure mileage by > >> miles-per-unit-energy, and on that basis, it is not clear to me if diesel gets > >> better mileage or not. It looks to me like: "about the same", though it's > >>hard to say. > >> > >> I also think that the Battery Electric Vehicle mileage figures I've seen, > >on a > >> per-unit-energy-onboard basis, by and large get better mileage than the > >gasoline > >> or diesel cars I've seen, by a wide margin, and they also get better > >mileage > >> even than the hybrids. I calculate the RAV4 EV as something like 93 mpg > >> gasoline equivalent, though I'd have to review some of the issues there, > >such as > >> whether the mileage is measured at the meter, or onboard, (since there are > >> inefficiencies of charging, in some cases very very high). > > >diesels most certainly do get higher mpg, > > The article stated that diesels get better "fuel economy". If this means that a > vehicle gets better "miles per gallon", then the assertion is correct and my > dispute with it is not correct. *However*, the use of the term "fuel > econonomy", in the present vernacular, has not been sufficiently made clear in > my view, and I guess that's what I'm trying to get across. In fact, it is > ambiguous not only in that it is somewhat natural to view "fuel" as having a > standardized energy content (of course: it does not particularly compared to > other fuels) but also because the word "economy" somehow makes it easier to > allow us to think that the term "fuel economy" might connote "energy > efficiency". > > Most people, if they show some interest in fuel economy have *no clue* that > there is more energy in a gallon of diesel than in a gallon of gasoline. Upon > learning this, I have seen some assume, wrongly, compounding the problem, that > it is somehow "even better" that one is able to wring more mpg out of a gallon > of diesel, when in fact the opposite is true, and it is usually not impressive > (though it is a matter of degree). > > Much of this could be cleared up by measuring not fuel economy but *energy* > economy. Many people assume without discussion that "mpg" means energy economy > which of course is not an equivalency, something that makes it very hard to > compare different fuels. I'm sure the oil companies don't mind *one bit* that > it becomes difficult to compare different fuels' energy economy, or that even > energy activists accept, without a shred of discussion, that it is ok to > standardize energy economy discussions to terms already defined in petroleum > inexact terms, .... thus conceding much of the battle to Big Oil before it is > even begun. "mpg": foo-ey I say. > > I think this all needs exact clarification and saying diesel gets "better fuel > economy" is wrong because it leaves the matter ambiguous for too many readers > whom you and I both know have not enough understanding of the matter to sort out > that there might be a very significant difference between "fuel economy" and > "energy economy". The author of the article we're discussing probably knew this > but thought it might be ok to do some shorthand because everyone else does it. > It's not ok, in my view. > > I have yet to see an article which makes the matter clear, except one or two > articles which pointed out that PNGV vehicles which came close to 80 mpg on > diesel were sort of cheating (though the matter was often glossed-over.) > > I have a further question that I've never seen examined or discussed which is > this: if diesel has more btu per unit volume or mass than gasoline, then I > wonder if it takes more of a barrel of petroleum to make x number of gallons of > diesel than it does to make x number of gallons of gasoline. If so, then how > much more? It becomes possible that the miles-per-gallon of diesel is *worse* > than that of gasoline if we are talking about the gallons of crude used per > mile. I reckon it might take some doing to get a hard idea as to the answer to > that one. > > >because diesel has a higher btu > >count / gallon. > > > >btu / mile is similar. > > Yes, I'll agree with that. You and I know this. Most people, including many > many energy activists, would have little idea of what you're talking about. > > I tried to put this chart together a couple of years ago with some of these > ideas in mind. I think the best thing for all would be to standardize mileage > discussions to a "neutral" energy unit (MegaJoules, BTU, maybe kWh, Erg? what is > an Erg anyway?) but some are less neutral than others. We concede too much, in > my opinion, by continuing serious energy discussion on terms defined in Oil, > (terms brought to us by the same people who cannot give anyone in the US or > perhaps on Earth a straight answer as to the price of a gallon of their wares, > but insist on this insulting 9/10 of a cent tacked on to every unit sold). The > number of BTU per gallon gasoline and I think also diesel is not at all an exact > number, so the terms are arguably not even objective or scientifically clear. > You get what you pay for but what the heck are you paying for? > > Here is the chart. Note that it is only when we deal in standardized terms that > it *starts* to become possible to discuss EV's and HEV's, and to compare other > fuels and their energy content. Of course at that point the Madding Crowd > chimes in with various other conversation-enders, such as the energy losses > between power plant and EV, and plenty of other assumptions, but one has to > start somewhere to get on with this research: > http://www.herecomesmongo.com/ae/comptab.html > > > >> > >> > >> Biofuels at Journey to Forever > >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >> Biofuel at WebConX > >> http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > >> List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: > >> http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >Biofuels at Journey to Forever > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuel at WebConX > >http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > >List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: > >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > ------------------------ Yahoo! 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