Hello Martin, Thanks for clarifying that. If the best way to store electricity is in battery systems (of course a solar plant would run only during daylight, but peak demand is generally in the evenings - not that the local habit of TV addiction helps..) then I imagine that the main systems will be wind, solar and hydroelectric - noone wants expansion of hydroelectric systems, indeed the trend is to remove them. The main issue is energy storage since these energy production systems can't be run on demand. I was thinking that efficienct conversion of electrical to chemical energy was the way to go, but that is what a battery is- thanks.
My take is that the viable biofuels are ethanol and biodiesel, and that the push for hydrogen is just a way to keep on burning fossil fuels while appearing to look green - kind of like the situation with Diesel in the late 70's early 80's, when fossil diesel was marketed as a 'solution'. I think that the sum contributions of renewable electricity and biofuel production can meet California's energy needs... otherwise we are going to end up like Argentina. Now I'll try and quantitate this. Cheers, Karus On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > I meant electricity -> hydrogen then back to electricity. > The conversion from electricity to hydrogen then back to electricity is > not even close to the efficiency of your everyday lead-acid battery. > It may work better for a car where weight and speed of recharging is a > concern, but he was talking about a power plant. A solar power plant > attempting to produce 24/7 would be nonsense - unless it is capable of > providing the full load during the day, there would be nothing left to > store for the night. So there is no need to convert the electricity to a > gas. > A hydroelectric facility runs 24/7 anyway when the water level is up. > There is little gain from converting the leftover [if any] to hydrogen > unless there is suddenly a great way of storing it uncompressed > [compressing would waste a lot of energy]. > > Icarus Solem wrote: > > >All hydrogen-powered fuel cells are 'hydrogen powered electrical > >generators'. To be classified as 'renewable energy', the hydrogen must > >come from a renewable source. Splitting water with solar electricity to > >generate hydrogen to burn in a fuel cell is renewable. Converting coal, > >oil or natural gas to CO2 and hydrogen and burning that hydrogen in a > fuel > >cell to generate electricity (follow?) is NOT renewable, and increases > >global warming due to atmospheric input of CO2, and yes, the science of > >global warming is well-understood. Generating hydrogen from geothermal > >sources that generate electricity to split water to form hydrogen to > burn > >in a fuel cell seems redundant, but the point is that hydrogen is easier > >to store by far then electricity - which is why Iceland has hydrogen > >filling stations now. This strategy IS renewable, although pollution is > >always a factor, even in renewables (solar cell plants, ethanol plants, > >etc. all produce pollution if not properly designed). The bottom line > >here is that a tank of fuel is more easily transported and stored then > >electrical charge is. This business of the conversion of light energy > and > >heat energy to electrical energy and chemical energy is the > >fundamental physical basis of all renewable energy strategies. This is > >exactly what green plants do in the course of photosynthesis, at the > >atomic/molecular level. > > > >On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > > > > > > > >>While interesting, the hydrogen must come from some other power source. > >>So I'm not sure that any self-respecting engineer would design a > >>hydrogen powered electrical generator. > >> > >>Party of Citizens wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Isn't there a model community project in Toronto which used a hydrogen > >>>generator for all of its electric power? Does anybody have any > details? > >>> > >>>POC > >>> > >>>On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Keith Addison wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > -- > --- > Martin Klingensmith > http://nnytech.net/ > http://infoarchive.net/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/KXUxcA/fNtFAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
