Hej Keith,
Thank you for starting the list. Yes, I left out the note, some of the brackets I will keep and some will go when I corrected my parts about ethanol. I hope that somebody else is interested to add to the discussion. Hakan This was my answer to you and your response, that will bring us up to date: >Reading through the links you gave me, I agree that small ethanol production >looks quite feasible. Very. >Not as good as biodiesel and SVO. Different, comparable, often complementary. >Some points were >however added to my feeling of unease and the possibility of a group >monopolization by "responsible" large interests. Such as? >I can see that in a third >world production, it is some merits for small ethanol production, without >involvement from dominant oil interests. Not only 3rd World. >Big corporations would have >problems in manipulating in those markets. They have problems anywhere manipulating small local markets. For instance, via the USDA's rigged organics standards, the big food (?) interests tried to hijack the organics market in the US. In fact they've simply created a different market. The small organics producers are unaffected and have simply opted out, continuing to deal with their local farmers' markets, local customers, CSAs, regardless, and doing very nicely thankyou. Organics is local, and that's that. They can't do it. >The major point was the correct and important mentioning of control of >bacteriological waste. The other smaller points was additions to my doubts >in feedstock preparation and fermentation. You'll have to be more specific. But I want to take this discussion to the mailing list, or both of them rather. Otherwise it is partly wasted. I was rather hoping you'd cross-post my last response to the lists with your responses. Best Keith At 11:18 PM 12/3/2002 +0900, Keith Addison wrote: >Hi Hakan > >"Useful confusion"? :-) > >Anyway, you've left some of my comments in the website piece (in >square brackets), but not the Notes, which said this: > > >Notes > > > >Ethanol production. > > > >From Carlstein, a Brazilian former member of Biofuel: > > > > >small scale eth production is widespread, but for 'shine purposes. it's > > >called 'cachaza', and it can be very tasty, and very, very, potent ! > > > > > >but there's no small scale eth production for fuel, because of the > > >hydrophile nature of the beast, which requires molecular sieve technology, > > >available to the large producer, but not to the backyard distillers. > > >methinks that first world small scale eth distillers would not have this > > >problem. a3 and a4 m. sieves are readily available to them, from what i > > >understand. > > > >3A molecular sieve is available and works well. It's also usable in > >3rd World countries on the small-scale, up to a point - the initial > >cost is not too high, and it's reusable many times. > > > >However, Carlstein's wrong - there's no need for ethanol fuel to be > >anhydrous UNLESS it's to be blended with gasoline. Pure 180-proof or > >even 160-proof is a good fuel on its own. It's not essential to > >raise the compression ratio, though it helps, and anyway that's > >easily done by skimming the head. Otherwise, all that's needed is an > >enlarged main jet. So small-scale, localized ethanol fuel production > >is a possibility. That means it can make use of locally-grown niche > >crops and crop by-products that are free of the constraints of more > >centralized schemes. The disadvantage here is that, unlike biodiesel > >and diesels, it's not dual-fuel - if you want to use gasoline again > >you have the change the main jet back to the old, smaller one. No > >big hassle though. > > > >There's a good variety of farm-scale fuel stills available (another > >one being scanned right now). We have one standing here in our > >living room that's capable of 5 gal/hr. Conversion and fermenting is > >easy. > >Here's my response to your response: > > >... here are some of my arguments, > > > >1. Fermenting to produce the 20-24% alcohol level before distilling > >takes time and space, compared to the more or less continuous oil > >pressing for vegetable oil and biodiesel. > >15% is enough actually, turbo yeasts will get more, but not much more >than 18%, which takes longer, 14% if you want it fast. It doesn't >make that much difference if you're making fuel. > >At any rate there's not much difference, it's quite easy to run >separate batches in parallel for constant processing. I'm not sure it >would take more space. Biodiesel probably takes more space than you >think, with settling tanks, dewatering tanks, washing tanks, more >settling tanks, a glyc settling tank. > > >To produce volumes, it needs quite big plants. > >Big volumes need big plants, but it's infinitely scaleable, down to >backyard or kitchen size. Our still is backyard size, ideal for a >homebrewer - about equivalent to a homebrew biodieseler with a 55-gal >drum set-up. At 5 gal/hr it would take 100 hours to produce the >average American's fuel supply for a year, a couple of hours a week >or one bigger run a month. It doesn't need constant attendance, so >labour isn't that much. Inputs can be free or largely free, no >methanol to pay for, process energy can also be free if you use waste >wood (pallets!!) or glyc by-product from biodiesel or something. > >Have a look at these: > >Six-Inch Column Still Plans >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh8.html#8-1 > >Three-Inch Column Still Plans >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh8.html#8-2 > >Two Low-cost Backyard Stills >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh9.html > >The Butterfield Still >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_butterfield.html > >I'm currently scanning the blueprints and full report for this >Butterfield farm-scale still set-up, very nice. > >These two manuals are all about small-scale local production: > >Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meToC.html > >The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html > > >At 15 years old, I worked one summer in a beer brewery and remember > >roughly the process and the huge fermenting tanks. > >Yes, but small, localized "micro-breweries" are proving most >successful now, all over the world. > > >2. As most Swedes, I have done some distilling. To achieve the 150 > >to160-proof is quite easy, but 180-proof takes a lot more both in > >processing and equipment. The additional process to 180-proof 90% > >alcohol is quite significant. > >Not really. Our still is supposed to do 190 but in fact it will only >do 170. But with a bit of tinkering it would do 190. These other >stills above will do 180-190. We'll rig our still to do 190 when we >want to produce ethanol for ethyl esters. > >These small stills will produce 190-proof: > >http://www.Moonshine-Still.com > >Most home distillers go for 190 proof. They use reflux or >fractionating stills now. Tony Ackland runs the two big Distillers >mailing lists, very active, and he has an excellent website on home >distilling. He's also a Biofuel member. > > >To use the 160-proof for drinking. also needs some filtering through > >fine active coal filter or bread if you are home brewer. > >Yes, but there's no need for that for fuel, the methanol content and >the fusel oils all burn very nicely in a motor! > > >3. I looked at your link and like your advice. For me, yield per > >acre seems to be the governing factor, but maybe I missed something. > >But I see that I should take away any references to corn, it is > >unnecessary and very controversial. > >I think what's controversial about it is that it's a heavily >industrialized and subsidized commodity crop in the US, not a >rational or sustainable system (as with sugar beet in the EU, for >instance, and indeed as with soy in the US). Grown rationally, on a >small-scale, as part of the cropping system on an integrated farm, >there's no reason why it shouldn't be part of that farm's energy >input. Like I said, yield isn't all, it never is. I've seen quite a >number of cases in 3rd World rural development where increasing >yields led to more poverty and starvation, not less. In fact that's >invariably been the case with the so-called "Green Revolution" HYV >crops - so-called (again) "High-Yielding Variety" hybrids. At best >they produce twice as much of half as little, as they're short of >protein. In fact they're high-response varieties, HRVs, bred to >withstand very high dosages of chemical fertilizers and especially of >pesticides, because nature hates them and attacks in force. >Traditional varieties well grown can produce the same yields, with >higher nutritional value, no pesticide or fossil-fuel inputs, and no >externalizations. Somebody like the USDA would not be quick to tell >you that though. Maybe if you used thumbscrews... :-) > > >4. For me ethanol looks like large production plants if it should > >contribute to energy supply in massive scale. > >There's room for them, same as with biodiesel, but more important, >IMO, are the small-scale localized plants, same as biodiesel. I >really don't see much difference. > > >5. It is also another thing that make me think that ethanol will be > >easier for the oil companies to control in the end. > >Not if it's localized. > > >That is the laws and taxation on drinkable alcohol. Already now it > >is illegal in many countries to distill alcohol and the current > >alcohol politic makes it easier for politicians to argue the needs > >of strictly controlled production, equal to trusted production by > >the large interests. It is much harder to argue something like this > >for vegetable oil. > >In the US it's not difficult to get a fuel permit from the Bureau of >Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. I think most countries have exemptions >for fuel use. > >There's a lot of information at Journey to Forever, at our ethanol >pages and in our library (as above). > >http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html >Ethanol: Journey to Forever > >http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html >Ethanol resources on the Web > >This is interesting - a Biofuel list member. Terry's very >knowledgeable, and approachable - he's just returned from a Biofuels >conference in India. You might drop him a line, if you like. >Beautiful stills they make: > >The Revenoor Co. -- Interesting, 3,500-word introductory article on >producing alcohol as a fuel, from veteran distiller Terry Wilhelm. >http://revenoor.com/ > > >Please guide me on this issues. > >I would like to see a discussion of it on the Biofuel list. I'm >surprised nobody else brought up this point in response to your post. >There are quite a few small-scale ethanol brewers there. > ><snip> > >Best > >Keith > > > > >Hi all, > > > >After considerable help and useful confusion from Keith I am putting up the > >first web page draft on the web site, > > > >http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml > > > >I have to do some changes and clarifications considering ethanol. We had > >some interesting off list conversation about my assumption that ethanol > >would be dominated by large scale interests. It was not intended to be off > >list and Keith thought that it could have a general interest. I hope that > >Keith can copy pertinent parts to this posting and we can continue with > >participation from list members. > > > >Hakan > > > > > > > >********************************************** > >If you want to take a look on a project > >that is very close to my heart, go to: > >http://energysavingnow.com/ > >http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card > >http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me > >http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site > >********************************************** > >"A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to > >how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn't the world > >being round that agitated people, but that the world > >wasn't flat. When a well-packaged web of lies has > >been sold to the masses over generations, the truth > >will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving > >lunatic." -- Dresden James > > > >"No flag is large enough to cover the shame of > >killing innocent people" -- Howard Zinn > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
