Hi Brian,
You are fortunate to have walking encyclopedia in your dad. Nurture him well.Yes pressurised SO3 being a gas would mix better than LIQUID, without heavy milling machine.It is just a suggestion. Thanks very much for "been there done that" compliment. It will keep me going in good spirit. I have prepared creosote and wood tars as rubber plasticizers, giving excellent energy damping properties. This I did by cooking by slow pyrolysis of the wood up to 500C in a drum fitted with condenser. Products: charcoal (30%), tar (7%), acetic acid (6%),methanol (1.5%), wood gas ( 25%), the rest being water. The tar dissoles in caustic soda NaOH and is easily applied to wood for protection against termites. Acetic acid can be recovered from water phase by proper solvent and distllation. Methanol is easily separated from water phase by fractional ditillation. It is like ethanol in properties and could be used as auto fuel. Although I
worked with Malaysian hardwoods there is plenty of similar data/literature on softwoods like pine. I think you can definitely put these ideas to work Brian. Good luck!
Brian Rodgers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Brian Rodgers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks for the note Manick.
It sounds like you have "been there done that" with cellulose to sugar to ethanol.
Every technological term in you letter sends me off looking up meanings.
Thank goodness for Google
SO3 Sulphur Trioxide, my search found that this can be a byproduct of coal powered energy plants. I am not sure how this fits into the equation yet but I almost always need to sleep on it to get the big picture. I don't suppose you could enlighten us? Are we attempting to break out the sugar with SO3? Similar to what the Sulphuric Acid bath does to the sawdust? My Dad is a retired chemist, his specialty back in the fifties & sixties when it was still fashionable was coal tar products and creosote. It is interesting that you note that a by product of this idea of yours is creosote. Unfortunately for us, my Dad just turned 87 years old on Friday and it has been quite a while since he has done research and chemistry. Just the same I will run your idea by him and see if any lights come on. By the way, Dad wrote a letter to University New Mexico where he is Alumni and asked if they are working on this wood waste as a biomass problem. He told me they did write back but I dont have any details yet.Brian Rodgers
Manick Harris wrote:
I used sawdust from Malaysian hardwoods like Meranti. I think any cellulosic material will do. One report states concentrated sulphuric acid and sawdust can also be milled together ( try !:1 ratio initially) into glucose at room temperature, ie 25C. This could be attempted with 2 roll mill set very close together,say 0.02mm. If this works how about gassing sawdust with SO3 ( ex gypsum) under pressure in a vessel? The residue I got was dark lignin which could be broken down into creosote for protection against termites and rubber filler giving excellent damping or energy absorption beit mechanical or electromagnetic as in radar shielding. Just a thought: we could proof planes this way to escape enemy radar. Excuse me if my thoughts go astray but it seems viable to pursue direct hydrolysis of biomass.
Brian Rodgers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
That is very cool. I have seen this process somewhere. H2SO4, that is Sulphuric Acid right? I have a friend with a small sawmill and a 2000 gallon tank sitting idle, he is going to use it for rainwater collection. I asked him if he ever fermented sawdust. He said, It composts pretty well when we get a little rain. He was keen on the idea of trying, but shied away from the idea of putting Sulphuric acid in the tank to shock the glucose. I told him we would wash it out real quick, LOL.
So yeah I am hoping that another way to break down the cellulose has been developed. I have heard of enzymes and mushroom spoor but nothing very miraculous yet, Hoping rather naively Im afraid.
Brian Rodgers
P.S. What type of wood did you use?
I understand it makes a difference.
We have mainly Ponderosa Pine Trees.
Manick Harris wrote:
I did this in the 80s as an one-time expt. Boiled sawdust in 30% H2SO4 for 3h, neutralised with lime, filtered and fermented the sugar with yeast into alcohol which was recovered by distillation. Reckon sawdust/biomass waste can be obtained at v.low cost. Cost of H2SO4 can be offset by value of CaSO4,gypsum, which is a saleable commodity. Yet no takers anywhere currently, despite rising petrol prices. Sad really because we are inhibited society really.
Brian Rodgers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am new here, but this certainly looks like the place to be.
I my opinion looking at ethanol strictly from a BTU to create over BTU available leaves out too many important variables. Even if with Ethanols numbers looking dismally uneconomical to many people who I will call naysayers the clincher for me is ethanol comes from a renewable resource corn. If we can figure out a way to break down the cellulose in wood waste forests products we would really have something. Dont get me wrong I want to help the American farmers but I live in the forests of the South-West USA and we have a real problem with small diameter trees choking the forests and creating a fire hazard. The solution becomes, two birds with one stone, economically speaking. The trees have to be removed and are anyway but they are being chipped and left in most places. Lets do some real research on fomenting wood fibers.
Brian Rodgers
New Mexico
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