> Waving your national flag in a global village like > this is like farting in church.
Chuckle..., chuckle..., snarf..., smurf... ROFL ROFL :-) Glad I wasn't sipping tea when it was read. Keith Addison wrote: >Well now, E. in Montana. It was your wife who joined the list, not >you. Now you say "we joined the list", but there was no we, just her. >Her message to the list administrators said nothing about sharing a >joint account with you, let alone a joint list membership. She was >twice referred to the list rules and list resources so that she would >know what sort of community she was joining, and it didn't include >you. You're not a list member here, you do not have the right to post >messages. You did not make the distinction clear in your first >message replying to Fox Mulder and everyone thought it was your wife. >Now you say who you are so you can tell me you're a veteran who knows >better. You just told Todd you're expecting to be kicked out for your >behaviour. And your wife is aware of all this. > >You said this to Todd: > > > >>of that for me, since after all I did write it. I am doing my best >>not to get thrown off >before I have everything said. So I will >>continue to try to be nice. >> >> > >Where in the world will all this NOT get you kicked out, try to be >nice or not? You and your wife with you? > >The "everything" that you feel you have to get said has all been said >here before, many times. By vets, like you, and by vets who're not at >all like you, there are quite a lot of them here. And what emerges is >that it's just blinkered nonsense anyway. It fits your tactics >though. Eg, you tell Todd you got him all "worked up" but it's you >that's worked up, and worse, by Fox's original message. > >Todd and I have argued before on the list when someone comes along >demanding that allegedly "off-topic" posts be censored, breaking the >oldest and strictest list rule against calling for restricted >discussion, and so he gets the boot, as required. Todd disagrees - >give him enough rope so he can hang himself in full public view, says >Todd. I said the boot is what the list itself had decided but I'd >think about it. > >You haven't yet demanded that "off-topic" posts be censored, but >what's the difference, you most certainly qualify for instant booting >anyway, on several grounds. > >However, on the contrary, go right ahead, take as much rope as you >like. Make my day. I mean it - if you stay and argue this out point >for point like an honest man without resorting to bluster and denial >and namecalling, you really will make my day. > >So drop the blather and state your case. But take care, don't booted >for the wrong reasons. Follow the rules, they're here, read them >right now, read them carefully: >http://snipurl.com/mx7r > >Use this, it's required: >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (60,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >60,000 messages over six years by thousands and thousands of people >all over the world, including many Americans, of all stripes. Think >about it. It's the list's collective memory. Three years ago people >here were warning about what is happening in Iraq now, and in the US >too. And you still haven't figured it out. > > > >>I spent 14 months in Vietnam in the Marines. I think that qualifies >>me to know how a >lot of these guys feel. >> >> > >I'm a journalist. The last person I'd ask about what's going on in a >war zone is a soldier. I'd ask, but last, not first. > >What I've said here before is that just about nobody in the world >outside the US cares a damn about how your soldiers feel, millions of >people have just been saying so yet again rather loudly on the >streets of the world's capitals. They're the soldiers of an army of >occupation following an illegal invasion of a sovereign state, which >is a war crime, and so far they've killed between 100,000 and half a >million people there. It's your victims people care about, not your >brave soldiers who start shooting in all directions in the middle of >a crowded city as soon as a mouse squeaks and use 250,000 bullets per >dead alleged "insurgent", destroying entire cities in the doing. >That's what soldiers do, they kill people and destroy property, >that's what they're for. > >Your reply to Fox Mulder said: > > > >>... and that Iraqi men women and children are killing U S soldiers >>who are there > dying for them >> >> > >You just said the same thing to me: > > > >>But what about the soldiers? As in Vietnam the people they are there >>to protect are also >trying to kill them. >> >> > >And your soldiers somehow killed hundreds of thousands of them by >mistake? "Ooops!" ??? > >You added something about corrupt US politicians there, but that's a >different subject - are you really saying that US soldiers are in >Iraq fighting and dying for the good of Iraqi men women and children >and you're protecting them? > >In your reply to me below you acknowledge the information I posted. >But did you read it? Like these two? > > > >>>http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33768/ >>>Chaos Accomplished >>> >>>http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33771/ >>>Welcome to Liberated Iraq >>> >>> > >How do you square all that (which is just from yesterday's grab bag, >any day will do) plus a truly massive amount of corroborating >evidence with your statement that your soldiers are protecting Iraqi >men women and children? That's a keyhole view that's only held by >some (ever-fewer) right-wing Americans and is only ever defended by >bluster and denial. That describes your reply to Fox, it's a >scattergun blast aimed at everything except the content of Fox's >message. You're blowing smoke, and so far it's you who's done all the >name-calling too. > > > >>... Like all other Americans reading this list I have been letting >>all of the hostile >remarks (by people who seem to have no sense of >>reality) slide right on by back into >the garbage pits from whence >>they came. >> >> > >You also said you haven't kept "a list of the Moronic remarks >espoused or thier perpetrators", but as I said, the list has a memory >even if you don't, so use the archives. Try to understand - when you >say things here they're on record. > >Specify which "hostile remarks" you mean, please state why the people >who made them have no sense of reality and state your specific >reasons for referring to them as "garbage pits", or withdraw your >remark and apologise for it. > >Also explain why you think Fox Mulder's copying a news item about US >Marines allegedly committing war crimes is name-calling, what it has >to do with corrupt politicians, and why you assume from it that he >and apparently others think they're living in perfect Utopian >societies (which owe you money, for some reason). > >On the other hand, you could just apologise for the whole ridiculous >rant and admit that you were (are?) a lot more worked up and a lot >less calm and rational than Todd is. You won't lose face if you do >that, everybody always respects someone who's got the guts to come >off it. > >You're human, eh? Humans can be pretty inhuman, as this thread is >saying. IMNSHO, some of the very important things that keep us human >are our memories, our communities, and our imaginations. Imagination >is the ability to live a thousand lives. > >You've already said you think your community is dysfunctional. But if >"foreigners" say so you spring to the defence of America the Brave >and Good and call them morons from a garbage pit. > >This list is an online community and it's not dysfunctional. Here >you're talking to thousands of people, Americans as well as people >from just about every other country and culture. There are all brands >of Christians here, and of Jews, and of Muslims, including list >members from most or all of the Arab states, including Iraq, and >indeed Vietnamese too. It's not just talk, very many of these people >are very active in their communities and beyond. > >Waving your national flag in a global village like this is like >farting in church. > >So now you're in a community, and it's got a memory even if you >haven't, and you're demanding we use our imagination: > > > >>Before you condemn a soldier, try to put yourself in his shoes. You >>may find some grace for him. I am not condoning murder. >> >> > >You're ignoring it, you're pretending it's not there. > >I know about soldiers, and I know that putting myself in a soldier's >shoes and watching him/me kill helpless women and children will not >arouse any human sympathy in me for the soldier. Nor hatred either - >you hate evil deeds, not those who do them. With your "thieves", >however, the ones back home in safety who pull all the strings, >that's a little more difficult. Have you tried putting yourself in >their shoes? This is what I get, and I don't care which nation they >come from: > >And I hope that you die >And your death'll come soon >I will follow your casket >In the pale afternoon >And I'll watch while you're lowered >Down to your deathbed >And I'll stand o'er your grave >'Til I'm sure that you're dead >(Masters of War, Bob Dylan, 1963) > > > >>And they, like us from Vietnam, get to live with the "FACT" that it >>was all over the money grabbing corrupt politicians. You try to >>remember that you served your country not the thieves running it. >> >> > >Have another look at that. What it says is that you didn't serve your >country, you only thought you were serving it at the time but in >reality you were serving a bunch of thieves, as you later discovered. >You were just a mug. You're trying to remember something that didn't >happen. Meanwhile what did happen was that you destroyed a whole >country and killed millions of people. But all you can say about that >now is that they tried to kill you while you were protecting them. > >What exactly is it again that being an ex-Marine vet qualifies you to know? > >That's also the only "fact" about the Iraqis that you've shown any >interest in, that you protect them but they try to kill you. > >Read those two articles I referred to above, and then put yourself in >*their* shoes: > >You're trying to go about your daily business in peace and goodwill >like everyone else when this heavy looking dude comes up to you, >waves a gun in your face and says he's there to protect you, then he >starts shooting your wife and children and blows up your house. So, >naturally and understandably enough, (a) your daughter, the only >survivor, sends the heavy dude a box of chocolates on St Valentine's >Day; or (b) you and everyone you know tell the guy to stop it and go >home but he won't listen and keeps on doing it, so you get hold of a >gun and start shooting back. > >Almost all Iraqis have been trying every way they know how for three >years to tell you to stop protecting them and go home. Why don't you >listen? > >I think your problem is that you can't see anything because you've >got a flag wrapped round your head. You're shooting at a target that >doesn't exist. We make a strong distinction between "Washington" and >"Americans", so does the whole world, even still. Nations and flags >are about power and manipulation, not about people and their >communities. False flags are the only kind there is. Why don't you >open your eyes at last? > >Keith Addison >Journey to Forever >KYOTO Pref., Japan >http://journeytoforever.org/ >Biofuel list owner > > > > > >>Hello Keith >>This is E in Montana. All of these things you cite about possible >>atrocities are disgusting and regrettable like most everything else >>in war. But what about the soldiers? As in Vietnam the people they >>are there to protect are also trying to kill them. By the way the E >>stands for ED, my wife and I shared an email address when we joined >>the list. I spent 14 months in Vietnam in the Marines. I think that >>qualifies me to know how a lot of these guys feel. It is no fun to >>spend every day waiting for a sniper bullet to end your life or to >>have it ended by a bomb planted by say a 3 year old child. It does >>something to you! It does something to you to be a "survivor" . You >>never forget the ones that died and those that wish they had. And >>they, like us from Vietnam, get to live with the "FACT" that it was >>all over the money grabbing corrupt politicians. You try to remember >>that you served your country not the thieves running it. >>Also my previous post was meant to have very little to dowith this >>one. It was meant for the many anti-American remarks made in >>previous weeks. Before you condemn a soldier, try to >>put yourself in his shoes. You may find some grace for him. I >>am not condoning murder. >> >>P.S. Don't knock our country. Do as you wish with our corrupt >>politicians!!! >> >>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' >>Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:37:29 +0900 >> >> >>>A link: >>> >>>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2090849,00.html >>>US Marines investigated for Iraq war crimes - World - Times Online >>>March 17, 2006 >>>By Jenny Booth and agencies >>>About a dozen US Marines are being investigated for possible war >>>crimes after the deaths last year of 15 Iraqi civilians caught in the >>>crossfire during a gun battle with insurgents. >>> >>>Also: >>> >>>http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12379.htm >>>US raid on home killed 11 family members >>>By Amer Amery >>>03/16/06 - TIKRIT, Iraq, March 15 (Reuters) - Eleven members of an >>>Iraqi family were killed in a U.S. raid on Wednesday, police and >>>witnesses said. The U.S. military said two women and a child died >>>during the bid to seize an al Qaeda militant from a house. A senior >>>Iraqi police officer said autopsies on the bodies, which included >>>five children, showed each had been shot in the head. Community >>>leaders said they were outraged at the killings and demanded an >>>explanation from the U.S. military. ... >>> >>>http://snipurl.com/nwz2 >>>Telegraph | News | SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' >>>American tactics in Iraq >>>SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq >>>By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent >>>(Filed: 12/03/2006) >>>An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army >>>over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies >>>of coalition forces. After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told >>>his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside >>>American forces. >>> >>>http://eatthestate.org/10-14/ConquerDivide.htm >>>Conquer and Divide (March 16, 2006) >>>The 48-page "Beyond Abu-Ghraib: Detention and Torture in Iraq" was >>>virtually ignored by US media, and that's a shame. Its findings, >>>based on extensive interviews with (among others) Iraq's prisoners, >>>former prisoners, and their families, directly implicate Washington >>>in <I>current</I> human rights abuses, and go a long way toward >>>explaining why a continuing US troop presence in Iraq, far from >>>keeping a lid on civil war, is actually making the violence, >>>sectarian and otherwise, far worse. >>> >>>http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140012006 >>>Iraq: Beyond Abu Ghraib: Detention and torture in Iraq - Amnesty >>> >>> >>International >> >> >>>6 March 2006 >>>According to Amnesty International, the US-led occupation forces >>>continue to use torture in Iraq. The US and UK have ignored their >>>obligations under international law and have "attached insufficient >>>weight to human rights considerations." Iraqi detainees are held >>>without trial or sentence, and Iraqi authorities have continued a >>>pattern initiated by the US in systematically violating detainees' >>>rights. >>> >>>http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33768/ >>>Chaos Accomplished >>>By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted March 20, 2006. >>>Three years after the U.S. invasion, a snapshot of Iraq reveals a >>>country that is miles from anything resembling a 'road to progress.' >>> >>>http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33771/ >>>Welcome to Liberated Iraq >>>By Entesar Mohammad Ariabi, AlterNet. Posted March 20, 2006. >>> From a physician's viewpoint, liberation means rising infant >>>mortality, critical shortages of medicines, terrorized doctors and >>>the return of diseases once under control. >>>Editor's Note: The following are the remarks of Dr. Entissar Mohammad >>>Ariabi, a pharmacist from Yarmook Hospital who is part of an Iraqi >>>women's delegation touring the U.S., organized by CODEPINK and Global >>>Exchange. She spoke on March 18 in West Palm Beach, Florida. >>> >>>Number Of Iraqi Civilians Slaughtered In America's War? As Many As 250,000 >>>http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11674.htm >>> >>>Number of U.S. Military Personnel Slaughtered (Officially >>>acknowledged) In Bush's War 2318 >>>http://icasualties.org/oif/ >>> >>>The War in Iraq Costs >>>$248,822,016,155 >>>See the cost in your community >>>http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182 >>> >>>'Iraq was awash in cash. We played football with bricks of $100 bills' >>>At the beginning of the Iraq war, the UN entrusted $23bn of Iraqi >>>money to the US-led coalition to redevelop the country. With the >>>infrastructure of the country still in ruins, where has all that >>>money gone? Callum Macrae and Ali Fadhil on one of the greatest >>>financial scandals of all time >>>Monday March 20, 2006 >>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1734689,00.html >>> >>>And so on. >>> >>>Keith >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March >>>>21, 09:11 AM >>>>Click to enlarge photo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>A US magazine has released a video it claims shows a >>>>civilian massacre by American marines in Iraq. >>>> >>>>The incident, which happened last November in the town >>>>of Haditha, was captured by a journalism student, Time >>>>Magazine says. >>>> >>>>The graphic footage shows heavily bloodstained rooms, >>>>and bodies of the alleged victims wrapped in rugs at >>>>the house and in the local morgue. >>>> >>>>Residents in the Iraqi town claim the incident >>>>happened shortly after a roadside bomb killed a US >>>>Marine in a western Iraqi town last year. >>>> >>>>US forces went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 >>>>members of two families, including a three >>>>year-old-girl, residents said. >>>> >>>>"American troops immediately cordoned the area and >>>>raided two nearby houses, shooting at everyone >>>>inside," said a witness. "It was a massacre in every >>>>sense of the word." >>>> >>>>Time said the available evidence did not provide >>>>conclusive proof that the Marines deliberately killed >>>>innocent civilians. >>>> >>>>The US Military, after being presented with evidence >>>>in January, concluded that civilians were killed by >>>>Marines, Time said, victims of "collateral damage" >>>>rather than deliberate murder. >>>> >>>>Lieutenant General Peter Chiarelli, the number-two US >>>>commander in Iraq, said about 12 Marines were under >>>>investigation for possible war crimes in the incident. >>>>He said the case was referred to the Naval Criminal >>>>Investigative Service. >>>> >>>> > > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
