Hallo, When folks start chopping up mails to answer them it leaves a lot to be desired. Pulling things out of context, omitting things, changing meanings in the middle of the game. Sounds very like how organized religion works.
Saturday, 25 March, 2006, 13:59:08, you wrote: ES> Why not? Well, I'll tell you the one, single, solitary reason I ES> classify myself as one of those dirty republicans...but I tell you I'm ES> so close to the fence it's amazing. This is somewhat confusing. To which fence in particular are you so close? ES> That reason is that I want power locally, in the hands of small, ES> local government, local voters, and local business. I'm not naive ES> enough to believe that many of the most important policy decisions ES> are made in this fashion--but I cling to the hope, just like many ES> of you cling to the hope that the policies you hate will change ES> simply by more people getting mad about them. If you remember I was responding to this: "But Kerry, and Gore before him, would only have meant business as usual anyway,different band, same old song, everybody hates it. Don't you have any rock'n'roll?" Admittedly I came in in the middle of a discussion, but Kerry and Gore are hardly "local" players. What does your reply have to do with national politics, or have I missed something and was it local politics the discussion was about? If so please pardon me for being hasty and not having the good sense to inform myself as to the context of the discussion. ES> I believe that it's perfectly, 100% acceptable for people in one ES> community to be ok with things that other people think are horrible, ES> and to have different opinions of what laws and products are most ES> important for every day life. ES> I think that one of the big rifts in America is, simply, what people ES> think are important items for daily life. I'm surrounded by moderaly ES> poor Americans, ones whose focus is surviving, day to day, who don't ES> have time to concentrate on foreign policy or environmentalism, and ES> until some golden grail of welfare reform sweeps across the nation, ES> they MUST be allowed to continue as they have...they must continue to ES> get services until it can be fixed...Their concern has to focus on ES> feeding their family, because that is their immediate necessity. Do I ES> believe these people will vote differently than, say, people in Vale ES> Colorado on environmental and tax issues? OF COURSE I DO, and I think ES> it's perfectly acceptable. Like I said, until the changes that we all ES> want actually happen, certain individuals must be allowed to maintain ES> the status quo. Does this mean we are back to national politics or? ES> Now...continuing on that line of thought, in America, we have primary ES> elections. And before primary elections, we have races. And in those ES> races, its peoples obligation to learn about candidates and, if they ES> can, financially support them. IF you especially support someone, you ES> tell people about them, and you vote with your wallet just as much as ES> your ballot. Please explain, in detail, how it is anyone's obligation to participate in any kind of races or elections in this land of liberty. Specifically, explain to me how it is MY obligation to involve myself in the workings of a corrupt and, as I see it, evil system. ES> Now, why do I not advocate not-voting at General Election scale? ES> Because then you're giving the fruitcake wingers (left and right) the ES> power to control the government, and that's extra scary on either ES> side. Even if you arrange a wide-scale voting protest, probably ES> ESPECIALLY if you arrange it, that's when the fringes will ally and ES> block vote and ruin everything...and/or you'll see the ES> third-party-disrupting-the-democrat-vote-phenomenon even harder. ES> And...if you just decide not to vote on your own to show 'em who's ES> boss, to me that's like saying "I'm going to dump this $2.50 a gallon ES> gasoline down the drain to protest gas prices." Are you answering more than just my mail here or are you just ad-libbing what you think I believe? ES> Almost like this guy, but not as extreme: ES> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/07/21/international/i000022D12.DTL ES> http://clublet.com/house?page=MarkMcGowan GSZ> "Person to person, heart to heart. Co-operation, discipline, GSZ> restraint, responsibility." ES> That's great, and when the carebear song is over, we'll focus back on ES> reality It would be nice for you to define "reality" and then defend that definition. You will not be able to adequately defend it. ES> and understand that even if we can get hundreds of thousands ES> of people to randomly give up the ideas of "Getting ahead", "getting ES> wealthy", and "punishment", they'll still get kicked in the face ES> by...well, everyone. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a socialistic ES> gated community start, but like I said in my senior thesis, socialism ES> will never ever work when it has to compete w/ capitalism for raw ES> products and labor. I promise to quit the carebear song if you promise to stop the Alice in Wonderland stuff. First, you are not addressing a socialist of any sort, nor a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian or whatever else. Before you begin to answer a mail read it, comprehend it, think it over and then reply. There was neither mention nor hint of political affiliation or affinity in my mail. By the way, labelling is one of the ten methods of propaganda. ES> Yes, I do understand the paradox of a "republican" who appreciates socialism. GSZ> Pollution and global warming and wars may not kill us but our GSZ> grandchildren and great-grandchildren? ES> I'd like to point out that only in the last 50 years has this luxury ES> of thought been valid...really only in the last 25. Never before in ES> the history of the human species has man been healthy and successful ES> enough to seriously worry about this wellbeing in any other way than ES> financially, and I think it's more the Rockafellers and Carnegies who ES> thought like that anyway. This is your opinion which is not to be taken as fact unless proven. ES> I understand it also has to do w/ science ES> and free time, but I don't think you can expect the global tide of ES> thought to change what is really "overnight", especially when more ES> than half the world lives in conditions that certainly don't allow ES> them that degree of freedom to alter the consumption patterns of their ES> daily lives to better serve their children, and even if the Sri Lankan ES> grandmother DID EVERYTHING she could to produce less pollution, any ES> american's 9 year would cause more pollution in a year than she has in ES> 30. Just to refresh your memory: "Voting isn't going to cut it and neither is "revolution". It is an evolutionary process." is what I said and if you check it out you will find that evolution is, by definition, not an "overnight" process. ES> Not naysaying---possibly being pessimistic, but really being ES> realistic. Complaining gets you so far...then it becomes time to lace ES> up your boots and go shitkickin. Please elaborate. Define "shitkickin" as used in this instance. GSZ> "No self-interest, no cherished beliefs, no financial or GSZ> political bias." ES> Save for cultures like maybe Mayans and Aztecs (who I might add are ES> both extinct), I don't think you're going to find many people in the ES> *world* willing to vacate their morals, ideas, religion, and well ES> being of their family and loved ones in order achieve a more utopian ES> society, especially not all at once. You really need to go re-read my mail. You have a comprehension problem. You are pulling something I wrote out of context and attempting to use it where it obviously does not apply. Are you in the organized clergy? >> Vote if you must but that just helps perpetuate the swindle. ES> Actually, I'll tell you a secret. I do vote on a platform, and on one ES> exclusively. I vote for education. If a legislator makes 1 vote to ES> decrease spending or teaching freedom for teachers, I lead a political ES> action group that immediately blacklists them. Other things are ES> important to me too, but I believe 100% that education is the first ES> step, and that integrating more ideas and freedoms for teachers is the ES> only real way we'll change the attitudes of tomorrow. Ah, yes, education. Let the lunatics run the asylum. Don't teach for the sake of teaching, teach for the sake of testing. Teach the answers of the test and we will have done our job of educating. It doesn't matter if you can comprehend anything just so long as you can pass the test. Then our job is done. Please, give an old man a break. My mother-in-law took a test a few years ago which was in the Peach Section of the Toledo Blade. Fairly straightforward high school fare. She is in her 80's and didn't finish high school. She nearly aced it. Her grandson, you know the rich one with the masters in business administration, took it and barely made 50 percent. Which is the educated one? GSZ> If you >> know the game is crooked and you enter it anyway then there is no room >> for pissing and moaning. ES> No, I disagree. If you enter the game under one set of rules and then ES> the rules change, then it's your right and OBLIGATION to show how mad ES> you are. That's what we're talking about in presidential elections, ES> someone changing the rules. I'm one of those old school thinkers who ES> believes that there is rarely a 100% right option. Perhaps in your ES> primary election there were 13 candidates...you must understand that ES> ONE of them will be the next leader for whatever position, and you ES> MUST pick the one that most closely matches your goals, and then ES> support them entirely, or you have 0 room to complain. For the third ES> time in this email, I'll say that one of the fundamental issues with ES> activism is that people expect change overnight, and it's not going to ES> happen. Change occours over generations...not weeks. Disagree if you will but you are still missing it. The rules have NOT changed. People have just been ignorant of the rules. If you are going to sit in on a crooked game you are either stupid if you know it is crooked, ignorant if you don't, or are a crook yourself. There may be other options but those three pull in most everybody I would think. And when NONE are near to matching my goals? And even if they were they don't have a snowballs chance of meaningful, lasting change? And then you go back to my point...evolution. ES> And as for fun German quotes... ES> Wer nichts weiss, muss alles Glauben. Wer nichts weíß, muß alles Glauben. I'm not using the "new" German spelling rules. I'm more used to Bavarian than high standard German anyhow but you don't get much of that in books, papers or magazines so I have to use what is available. ES> I understand where you're coming from, and I'm assuming you're german, ES> correct me if I'm wrong. I understand fully the pressures of your own ES> social system, w/ Turkish refugees, etc, and I see why you have little ES> time for the pedantic antics of the US system. You are wrong. Michigander born and bred of Bavarian, Austrian and Swiss stock with a little old County Cork Grandmother who loved to rail at the "bunch of bull-headed krauts" whose family she married into. Two things the Irish and Germans have in common which makes for a good match...drinking and arguing. Never a dull moment. ES> I just choose not to ES> agree that everything is light and full of gaity and easily changed ES> paradigm. You need to go re-read that mail. I didn't say what you implied. Haste makes waste. Read what is written not what you think is written. Chopping up a mail makes it almost unintelligible for the most part. I certainly could not understand where you were getting whatever it was that you were getting and when I read my paragraphs in their entirety it doesn't come out to the mail you answered. Then you need to translate these words of Luther (no, I'm not Lutheran): "Aus einem versagten Arsch kommt nie ein fröhlicher Furz!" Lightness and gaity have their place. Perhaps I just jumped in at the wrong time without reading the rest of the thread. Yours just happened to be the first of a couple thousand of unread mails in my biofuels folder which I happened to open. Life has been somewhat busy this winter and I'm not nearly as quick and strong as I once was. Nonetheless..."All the way!" Take care. Have a good one. Use your dictionary. ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. ******** We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. ******** The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" ******** Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. ******** Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin ******** The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
