Rudtard Kipling is rolling is his grave but William Easterly probably approves of pretty much everything you've said.
Michael Redler wrote: > I just wanted to chime in here. > > Keith wrote: > > "It reached a stage here where the list would not have > survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, > we didn't just make them up." > > It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression, > screening all posts before distribution (for example). > > This forum proves that a loose framework is very effective > at maintaining individual freedoms while allowing it's membership to > participate in maintaining continuity. > > Kim: I read some of your posts and couldn't help notice the > similarities between your views and the ideology driving the White > Man's Burden. Maybe it's time to rethink the ideals to which we, in > the US, have been indoctrinated. Maybe it's a good time to question > the perceived credibility and legacy left behind by people like > McCarthy and accept the fact that it's not acceptable to steer the > culture, economy and government of another country simply because you > feel you're "better". > > You wrote: "Our right to determine the direction of our life today is > unparalleled in human history." > > So, Babylon, Ancient Greece, etc. don't count. The Magna Carta was > "just a piece of paper" (if I can borrow an expression from our > president). > > There have been and are, better examples of democracy in human history > than the republic we Americans pretend to push on others in the > process of building an empire. > > Do some research on our Constitution and it's origins. It will lead > you in a few directions - one of which is toward the Iroquois nation. > Ask an Iroquois about their "right to determine their life" - if you > can find one. You talk about the reassignment of land for the greater > good but conveniently under emphasize the eradication of those people > in the process of fulfilling that illusion. > > > Mike > > > */Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: > > Hello Kim > > >Greetings, > >I do believe that many people on this list don't read real well. > > I think you're relying on it. No doubt a new subject-title and > dumping all the evidence helps. The ones who disagree with you read > quite well though. The un-keyhole view is of Kim trying to backpedal > her way up a pedestal, in defiance of the laws of gravity and pedals. > > >I did say I was in favor of colonizing the stars, not the colonizing > >that happened in past history and is happening today by the > >corporate world. > > Um, sorry, not so. In fact you were also criticised for the > colonising the stars bit, and you ignored that too. But for a lot of > forbearance you could have got the boot just for that, and much > besides. You should read the list rules again. They're there for a > reason. It reached a stage here where the list would not have > survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, > we didn't just make them up. They had to be put into a form that > people could be referred to and told to read and comply with when > they joined. If not no list any more long ago already. > > A major reason for it was to put a stop to this kind of vanishing act > that denialists of all stripes like to pull with what they said > yesterday. You're not a denialist? But you walk the walk. The rules > are all about integrity. Please go and read them. > http://snipurl.com/mx7r > > >I do find good in many bad situations. Do I wish that certain > >changes had come about in a more humane manner, of course. Part of > >getting over hatred is seeing that even though you hated a > >situation, some personal good came from it. Hatred is bad for the > >person who hates, not the person who is hated. > > Morally and spiritually, indeed so. Practically, well, what will you > say, Kim? At least the victims were pure of heart when they got > slaughtered so it was a Good Thing for them, they didn't get the > chance to pollute their spirits with negative feelings like hatred > afterwards? Only a pessimistic person who sees no hope for humanity > and knows nothing about history could disagree, eh? Sure, you didn't > say that, but it's not far from what you did say, which you're now > trying to sweep under the corner of the carpet, as usual. That's > right, I'm going to unsweep it a little, did you think I wouldn't? > You think some strange things. What made you think I wouldn't check > the snopes reference you posted even if you didn't? Denialists don't > do metaphor either, they say "I didn't say that!" > > >By distancing > > Hm. > > >and looking for good, one can overcome hatred of even a whole race. > > Hating a whole race, my word. > > >To say that by finding good in a situation that you condoned the > >original sin is nonsense. > > It might be. If you use the good that you look for to distract from > the "original sin" it might not be such nonsense. If you set out in > search of a "good" in order to use it for that purpose it'd be even > less nonsense. And when you use the perceived good to disappear the > original sin altogether it's not nonsense at all. > > Perceived good: > > >[Kim] For that matter, I do believe that Native women have more > rights > >now than they had when they were property of the men in their > families. > > Isn't that pretty much what the US military says when they succeed in > liberating a village only they had to kill most of the villagers and > bomb all the buildings first, but hey, at least they're free, it's > the only way to make omelettes, getting bombed is almost as good for > you as getting colonised. > > >That would be like saying a black person who looking at the > >situation in Africa and counting his blessings that his family is in > >America, condoned the slavery that brought his family to America. > > I think a lot of Africans would object to that view, with reason. Do > you think that's what the blacks in New Orleans who were on TV after > Hurricane Katrina were thinking and it made them feel all warm and > cosy inside, who needs a bus ticket? You had a different view of them > at the time, and it's part and parcel of the current consignment. > > >Taking a balance view and learning to not hate for the past by > >finding good in it should not be the antithesis to a sustainable > >world. > > Indeed it's not, but that's not the same as using some perceived > benefit that's far from clear to say the least to hey-presto an > horrendous slaughter into a Good Thing for everybody including the > victims, and just for a bonus the survivors' women are freer now too, > your "balanced view". When challenged your argument was that at least > you can see some hope for humanity, unlike me, LOL! Now the only > option you're leaving to seeing it all your way, in the sanitised new > clothes you've dressed it up in, is to be doomed to hatred as well as > an historically challenged pessimist. > > I wonder how much you know about hatred? Me, well I don't hate > anyone. It's not just armchair stuff, I've had my share of reasons > for hatred. I can see them now, clear as the day they happened, scene > after scene after scene, like a movie. It sort of doesn't leave you a > lot of room for trying to fabricate pretences about it. How many > times have you seen people being slaughtered? There's more than one > way of doing it too, some of the no-blood-and-guts ways are even > worse, and there are lots of other hateful things short of outright > slaughter. I tried hatred once, I mentioned it the other day. I got > the most powerful lesson I've ever had, in short order. Don't hate! > As Gustl says, you can hate the hateful deed, but not the doer. It > can be hard! > > >To build a sustainable world, we need to fight current evil yes, but > >we also need to forgive and forget the past so we can live in peace, > >not hundreds of years of fighting. > > Forgive and forget, fool me twice, right. You have to face up to the > past and its lessons or you'll repeat them. You're just denying the > past because it doesn't fit nice and comfortably with what you want > to believe. That's your prerogative, but it's not your prerogative to > try to weave it into the fabric of what goes on here. Somebody was > talking about memes, and some of them are toxic. > > Forgetting isn't good for you. Forgiving has two sides to it, it > requires reconciliation,which involves repentance and a mending of > ways, as well as truth, and even then it might be a good idea to > check under the corner of the carpet. > > Just turning your back on hundreds of years of fighting and running > away from it thinking you can leave it all behind that way doesn't > exactly cut it when you wipe out most of an entire people who happen > to be occupying "your" new home and then focus on finding bigger and > better ways of doing it all over the world, like now for instance. > That was the objection to your scheme to colonise the stars, God help > all the little green men with their peace pipes. But maybe the > surviving little green women will be freer. > > So what's under the corner of the carpet? Hey-unpresto, the corpus > delicti, or part thereof: > > > >Kim at Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: > > > > > >"Each time we have opened a new area we have grown in human > rights for a > > >short time. " > > > > > >Kim, > > >I doubt if Native Americans, Indigenous peoples all over the > world, and > > >anyone who has had their land taken by invaders will agree with > this > > >statement. I applaud your desire to be an optimist rather than a > > >pessimist, but > > >optimism should be based on a willingness to look at all facts > honestly. > > >Best wishes, > > >Marilyn > > > >Greetings, > >I never said it was equal or that no one suffered, but hereditary > wealth > >lost it's hold a bit each time a new area opened. Looking back at > Ancient > >Greece and Rome, this happened right up to the opening of the > >Americas. For that matter, I do believe that Native women have > more rights > >now than they had when they were property of the men in their > families. It > >depends on what you choose to look at and in how general of terms > you are > >speaking. First Americans did practise slavery. Our right to > determine > >the direction of our life today is unparalleled in human history. > The fact > >that not all people have this right, does not take away from the > >achievement of this freedom. It just means that we need to work > harder so > >that all people can have this right. As to the view of aboriginal > people, > >I have also discovered that their view of the invaders depends on > their > >status within their people and their sex. Not all invaders were > horrid, > >some came to love. This is where the Metis come from. > >Bright Blessigns, > >Kim > > The comparison I made: > > >Sorry to say so, but that sounds horribly like this: > > > > > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Morgan" wrote: > > > > All I can add in our defense, is that much more good has > come from > > > our use > > > > of the land for the good of the world, than from the natives who > > > inhabited > > > > it previously. Yes, you too have benefited from Jackson' s > quest, > > > so find a > > > > better argument about the poor, savage, barbaric, nomadic though > > > culturally > > > > rich natives who fell easily to manifest destiny. Their children > > > are being > > > > well taken care of, and now have the benefit of electricity, > > > inexpensive > > > > housing, internal combustion, oh, and beer. :) > > That's because it IS horribly like that. > > >>Just because you can find some good in a bad situation, does not > >>mean that you think the bad situation was right in the first place. > >>When the world hands you lemons, make lemonade! > > > >You didn't even mention the bad side of it until you were > >challenged, and you've been back-pedalling ever since. > > So you're still here, but only on sufferance. The only question is > whether you can see it yourself or you're blinded by your own > smoke-and-mirrors act, in which case you'll just do it again, now or > later. Careful with that reply, better not to. > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > KYOTO Pref., Japan > http://journeytoforever.org/ > Biofuel list owner > > > > >Bright Blessings, > >Kim > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
