Hi Terry >Hi Keith, > >I believe in the 100 mile diet (mostly locally grown food) and organic food.
Believe? Have faith in? It's not a religion, no need for faith. 100 miles is a bit far. Traditionally Chinese peasants said when you come out your front door in the morning you should be able to see your evening dinner. A good rule, IMHO, a good measure for a sustainable farm too. As for organic, well, I've been saying it's just a label, and I think I'm going to stick to that. It varies, and indeed it can be more than just a label but don't bet the farm on it, so to speak. If you shop in a supermarket or something, food with an organic label is probably better than food without an organic label. >The problem with produce not being certified is that there are >cheaters in the real world. Well now you don't say Terry. >Farmers who use pesticides and chemical fertilizers and then say >they are organic. Certified organic farmers who don't cheat use certified organic pesticides and organic fertilisers and it's still not organic - just organic by substitution, not organic by management (real organics), and it doesn't work very well. Real organic farmers don't use or need pesticides of any kind, nor fertilisers of any kind, or not by the usual ag-industry definition of fertiliser, ie plant nutrients. Real fertiliser is compost, and it feeds the soil, not the plants - in a healthy soil the plants look after themselves. Feeding the plants direct is a poor practice, not organic, no matter whether the nutrients are of "chemical" or "natural" origin. >The verification inspectors enforce safety standards for consumers >who want to buy real organically grown food. Yes, that's the myth. If I'm wrong about this as far as the US is concerned, please correct me, since it seems you used to work with this. Actually what gets certified is the management system, on the assumption that if the management system is such as is required for the production of organic food according to the official standards then standard-quality organic food will duly be produced. This can be achieved without any examination or testing of the soil or the crops or the produce, nor even a visit to the farm that extends beyond the farm office. The crops are not tested. Now please tell me how this differs from the tip-of-the-iceberg case I mentioned the other day of NBB-type Big Biodiesel producers sending off a sample (probably a lab sample, not a production-run sample) every year or whatever for standards testing and most likely it just gets a rubber stamp at the testing lab if it's from an NBB member, and then disastrous on-road experience and subsequent tests show it's lousy stuff, not standard fuel at all. Which doesn't stop them producing it and selling it. This kind of behaviour is very widespread throughout the industrial sector. I don't think the organic verification inspectors actually enforce anything much. On the other hand, the farmer who cheats at the local community market level won't get away with it for long and risks a negative community response as well as a negative market response when it's discovered, not worth it. But the wider the market area, the more distant the producer from the consumer, the more cheating you'll find, labels or not. You seem to be unwilling to accept that there's any difference between local markets and the industrialised food market. It's not just a difference of scale. Best Keith >Terry Dyck > > >>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use >>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 16:19:41 +0900 >> >> >Hi Kirk, >> > >> >I am not sure were your 3000 acres are but here in BC, Canada, you >> >would have to have a farm inspected by certified organic >> >Verification people not only for fertilizer but for pesticides and >> >herbicides and the oats you feed your chickens would have to be >> >certified as organic as well plus many other conditions such as no >> >drugs or antibiotics. >> >>To what avail Terry? >> >>To get a label so WalMart can sell it for a better margin a thousand >>miles away? >> >>LOL! >> >>Keith >> >> >> >> >Terry Dyck >> > >> > >> >>From: Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> >>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use >> >>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 13:48:03 -0800 (PST) >> >> >> >>We ran 3000 acres. A small operation. My stepdads brother ran the >> >>slaughterhouse and meatmarket in town. The only grain they got was >> >>a scoop of feed so their head was down so you could put the rifle >> >>against the back of their skull. >> >> I am familiar with the business. >> >> As for our chickens they got oats and wheat. We didnt fertilize so >> >>I guess it was "organic". >> >> Old hens have fat but fryers are lean meat. >> >> As for hog and chicken "farm" pollution it is a travesty and the >> >>monied such as Tyson get away with it because of who they are and >> >>who they know. >> >> The biggest dead zone that I actually saw the satellite photos of >> >>was the spraying in Nam. The chemical companies assured the >> >>military the die off would be in river plumes maybe as far as 50 >> >>miles. When the die off was larger than Nam itself spraying was >> >>stopped. >> >> Nothing has changed. Except we are the Vietnamese now courtesy of >> >>Monsanto and others. >> >> >> >> Kirk >> >> >> >>Terry Dyck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Hi Kirk, >> >> >> >>Even the so called grass fed cows spend their last days on >>special feed lots >> >>to fatten them up. When I was involved with a certification of organic >> >>farming organization I approached a chicken farmer who always complained >> >>that he couldn't go completely organic because the cost of >>organic feed was >> >>too high. I suggested that he could just let the chickens eat like wild >> >>birds and he mentioned that that would be very healthy for the >>chickens but >> >>no one would buy the meat because the chickens would be too skinny. The >> >>farmers have to purchase or grow special grains that are certified organic >> >>and feed this to the chickens to produce more fat. >> >>Also, there are many dead zones now in our oceans were fish can >>not survive >> >>and the cause is run off from factory cattle and hog farms. There are lots >> >>of scientific studies done on this. >> >> >> >>Terry Dyck >> >> >> >> >> >> >From: Kirk McLoren >> >> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> >> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> >> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use >> >> >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:36:39 -0800 (PST) >> >> > >> >> >There are so many assumptions made in these "analysis" I fail to get >> >> >excited. When man was chipping flint and buffalo herds took a day to run >> >> >past a point how much methane was there? There was more forest too and >> >> >rotting vegetation and termites. As for fertilizer for feed that means >> >> >feedlots and most beef in the west is sold from open range. >>Grass one day >> >> >then a train ride to swift and armour. No feed lot involved. The biggest >> >> >feed lot operator I know ships all his meat to Japan. American consumers >> >> >dont want to pay that much. >> >> > For every cow I see on a lot I see 10 or more on grass. >> >><snip> _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
