Thanks for your help Keith...Sorry for questioning in such a manner. In my absence of success, I was looking for something to compare to. As in, this is what is looks like when you have water contamination, or this is what it looks like when you need more caustic. I know it's not quite that simple but I wasn't bad-mouthing your website nor demanding you post a picture-book recipe.
You questioned many of my thoughts and questions below. My biggest question was I was with the wash test, I was getting a lot of soap if not all soap. In hindsight, all 5 first batches were soap it looks like. Each one separated, but with a soap layer and a water layer. It just didn't look like the website picture and I didn't know where I was going wrong. -Roger Keith Addison wrote: > Hello Roger > > >> That is the only thing >> missing from J2F, pictures with typical results and adjustments >> necessary to make improvements. >> > > Perhaps in your opinion, but not in mine. I've quite often thought of > removing the two pictures there are. You're a case in point. You keep > talking about the pictures: > > >> I wish there was >> more pictures - not sure if I'm adding too much of something or too >> little or what. >> > > This is what the picture caption says: > > "Wash-test with unwashed biodiesel -- left, after a violent 10-second > shaking; right, biodiesel and water separated cleanly within minutes. > The biodiesel will be cloudy, and the water can be milkier than this, > but as long as it separates quickly and cleanly, it passes the test." > > The text says this: > > "The biodiesel should separate from the water in half an hour or > less, with amber biodiesel on top and milky water below. ... If you > have an emulsion any thicker than the normal "paper thin" interface > layer between oil and water, the batch should probably be retreated." > > This is what you said in your second message: > > >> The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - >> the others longer up to 15 minutes or so. ... With each wash test I >> got cloudy water with a very thin white line between. The biodiesel >> looks cloudy white. >> > > So what's your problem? > > But you also say: > > >> However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. >> > > Ho-hum. > > Now with your new tests you say this: > > >> Picture C is after an hour of settling. The is the best wash test I've >> gotten but it looks like a lot of soap in there. >> > > That doesn't make sense. You said one of your previous tests > separated in less than a minute with a very thin white line between, > which is fine, but you say this new one is the best test you've had, > it settled for an hour and according to the picture only 15ml of the > 20ml of biodiesel you put in has separated. > > Would you mind explaining that please? > > Did you read the next bit, after the wash-test: "What should you do > if your fuel doesn't pass the wash-test?" And Tom's explanation of > "How to use the quality tests" a bit further down? > > You also said this: > > >> And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in >> the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a >> melon or something. >> > > And previously: > > >> Has anyone tried this? [Peanut oil] It's all I had laying around to >> start with but I >> keep getting a questionable result. Since it was new, I tried the same >> recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test >> and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. >> > > You said that twice, and you were asked about it but didn't explain. > > I'm puzzled about why you'd go to all the trouble of setting yourself > up with everything you need to make test batches and then, for the > most important item, the oil itself, you use "all I had laying around > to start with", and when you "keep getting a questionable result", > you persist with it instead of dumping it and getting some decent oil > to work with. > > Obviously, IF you're following the instructions, your "whatever I had > lying around" oil is the most likely culprit, no? > > When you applied to join the list, you told the listadmin: > > >> Just starting out with my first test batches and had a few questions >> that aren't covered on J2F. Please add me to the list. >> > > But it says at the list website subscribe section that you don't need > to join the list to learn how to make biodiesel. Did you read that > bit, or didn't you believe it? > > Listadmin reminded you of it: > > >> Please read this: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#learn >> >> "NOTE: You don't need to join the Biofuel list to learn how to make >> biodiesel. Start here: Where do I start? >> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start> Follow the >> instructions, step by step. Study everything on that page and the >> next page and at the links in the text. It tells you everything you >> need to know. >> >> "Many list members who've done it themselves say the same thing. If >> you ask novice questions at the list that have been answered many >> times before, that's what you'll be told (or asked to check the list >> archives, see below)." >> > > So what were your questions that aren't covered at JtF? > > It starts like this: > > >> Where do I start? >> Start with fresh unused oil, NOT with waste vegetable oil (WVO), >> that also comes later. ... >> >> Make your first test batch >> Here's what you need: >> - 1 litre of new vegetable oil, whatever the supermarket sells as cooking oil >> > > So it couldn't be that bit, could it? > > Actually it starts with this: > > >> Start with the process, NOT with the processor. The processor comes later. >> > > You said this: > > >> >>> I made a 2x75Gal machine that I >> >>> am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. >> > > And: > > >> > The processor I made (assuming I would be using it by now) has 2) 75 >> >>> gallon tanks with individual heaters, controls, pumps, and stirrers. It >>> can be used as a 150gal unit or a 2-stage 75gal unit. (I've attached a >>> picture.) I can't wait to try it but haven't used it yet for fear of >>> making a lot of soap. >>> > > Baffling. You're not at all the only one, but I can't understand why > someone would want to build a processor before they have a clue about > the process it will be processing. Pagandai Pannirselvam said here: > "It is essential for the operator to understand the process," indeed > so, and one would think it's quite obvious that that applies even > more so to the processor designer. Oh well. > > So what questions aren't covered at JtF? Or is it that you just don't > take much notice? > > Actually you still haven't answered many of Tom's questions. > > Whatever, I believe I'll stand by what it says at the website > subscribe section: > > "You don't need to join the Biofuel list to learn how to make > biodiesel. Start here: Where do I start? > <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start> Follow the > instructions, step by step. Study everything on that page and the > next page and at the links in the text. It tells you everything you > need to know." > > Keith Addison > > Journey to Forever > KYOTO Pref., Japan > http://journeytoforever.org/ > > > >> New Results...Better I think. >> >> I tried another batch last night with vegetable oil with 'better' results. >> >> 1L Clean, Virgin, Vegetable Oil >> 200ml Methanol >> 5.5g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) >> 55°C Temp via Hotplate >> Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate >> >> Here are some pictures of what I have so far... >> http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01a.JPG >> http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01b.JPG >> http://tesi.servepics.com/roger/BD-4208-01c.JPG >> >> I let it settle for 14 hours. Picture A is of the results. >> Picture B is right after shaking 20ml of BD and 20ml of water (both at >> room temperature) >> Picture C is after an hour of settling. The is the best wash test I've >> gotten but it looks like a lot of soap in there. >> >> So my question is... which way do I need to go to make it better? More >> KOH? I'm using very accurate measurements. (Digital balance accurate >> to 0.001g, Graduated cylinders, etc.) No water contamination that I'm >> aware of and taking precautions not to have any. That is the only thing >> missing from J2F, pictures with typical results and adjustments >> necessary to make improvements. Haven't tried the methanol test yet >> (still at work). >> >> Now, when I used peanut oil with the same recipe, I got a cloudy, opaque >> water and cloudy whiteish BD after the wash test. Any thoughts on which >> way I need to go with that? I presume I'll have to titrate it and make >> adjustments from there. I need a pH probe to go with my meter before I >> can proceed with the peanut oil or used oil. >> >> >> Thomas Kelly wrote: >> >>> Roger, >>> Now we're getting somewhere. >>> >>> >>> >>>> The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but >>>> separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale >>>> yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. >>>> Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L >>>> of biodiesel for each batch. >>>> >>>> >>> You are getting a clear split. You have made biodiesel. You may well >>> have some unreacted mono and di glycerides in with the BD. >>> - Have you tried a quality test on the unwashed biodiesel? >>> i.e. the Jan W. solubility in methanol test describes at JtF? >>> >> > >> >>> - I would be very careful not to include any glycerin mix when you pour the >>> biodiesel off the top. In fact I would avoid pouring altogether. Draw the >>> BD >>> off using a pipette or do the following: Get a few .5 L - 1L clear >>> plastic >>> sports drink bottle (PET bottles) that have twist open/close tops. Some >>> water bottles have pull-to-open push-to-close tops. Process as usual, allow >>> to cool a bit and then pour the mix into one of the bottles. Allow the >>> biodiesel-glycerin mix to settle in a closed and inverted bottle. After 12 >>> - >>> 24 hours drain out the glycerin from the bottom. >>> >>> If any unreacted glycerides are present, even a small amount of >>> glycerin/soap contamination will prolong separation time during the wash >>> test. >>> >>> >>> >>>> With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very >>>> thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. >>>> With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very thin white line >>>> between. >>>> >>>> >>> Do you mean: >>> Cloudy water on bottom, with a "very thin white line between" the cloudy >>> water on bottom and something darker on top? >>> This would be a good thing. >>> >>> When you say: "The biodiesel looks cloudy white." I'm a bit confused. If >>> the biodiesel is white, you wouldn't be able to see the "very thin white >>> line between". It would just be white on top of white. >>> >> > Is the biodiesel layer (on top) darker than the "thin white line"? >> Again, >> >>> a good thing. >>> >>> >>> >However, it doesn't look quite like what J2F described as good fuel. >>> >> > >> >>> Do you mean after doing a wash test? >>> It will not yet be good fuel. It will take more than shaking with water >>> once >>> to get the contaminants out of the BD. >>> After 3 or 4 washes, the wash water should be clear and the same pH as >>> the water that was added. The BD will be cloudy because water will be >>> suspended in it. The next step is to dry the BD. Heat it gently. You might >>> put your tube of BD in a hot water bath. As the mix heats up water will >>> fall >>> out and the BD will clear. >>> >>> I do my wash tests in the same PET bottles described above. Equal >>> volumes of water and BD ~150ml of each. Shake vigorously. With top >>> closed, invert, and drain after water settles out. Add clean water & >>> repeat. >>> >>> >The last batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the >>> others >>> >>> >>>> longer up to 15 minutes or so. >>>> >>>> >>> It might be that your KOH is not 90% pure >>> @ 90% purity you would use 5.45g KOH/L of unused oil >>> @ 85% purity you would use 5.76g KOH/L of unused oil >>> >>> Doing the methanol quality test on the BD before you wash it or after you >>> wash and then dry it would tell us more about your success in achieving a >>> complete conversion of the veg oil. >>> >>> >>> >>>> And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in the garage, each one has >>>> turned >>>> to mush. >Looks like the inside of a melon or something. >>>> >>>> >>> You're losing me here. Are you referring to the glycerin mix separated from >>> the BD? >>> >>> Just another word of caution. When you do succeed at 1L test batches and >>> feel comfortable w. the process. scale up gardually. We can talk aboput >>> this >>> another time. >>> Dinner calls. >>> Best of Luck to You, >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Roger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:41 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil >>> >>> >>> Sorry for the excitement and frustration. I've made 4 or 5 1L batches >>> with virgin peanut oil with no luck. >>> >>> 1L Clean, Virgin, Peanut Oil >>> 200ml Methanol >>> 5.4g, 5.5g, 5.6g, 6.0g of 90% KOH (All with very similar results) >>> 55°C Temp via Hotplate >>> Agitation: Fast Stirring for 30 minutes via Hotplate >>> >>> The original separation looks great - waited at least 12 hours but >>> separates in about 2 hours. Obvious layers with a slightly hazy, pale >>> yellow biodiesel layer and clear, darker by-product layer. >>> Separated by pouring the biodiesel off the top. Looks to be about 1.1L >>> of biodiesel for each batch. >>> >> > >> >>> It's slightly colder in my garage, but not outside temperate. I'd say >>> roughly 55°F or so. Each wash test was with 20ml of product and 20ml of >>> water in a 50ml plastic tube. The final wash test I performed inside >>> with warmer water. With each wash test I got cloudy water with a very >>> thin white line between. The biodiesel looks cloudy white. The last >>> batch of 6.0g separated the quickest, less than a minute - the others >>> longer up to 15 minutes or so. However, it doesn't look quite like what >>> J2F described as good fuel. And, with the rest of the batch in a jar in >>> the garage, each one has turned to mush. Looks like the inside of a >>> melon or something. >>> >>> My first thought was that peanut oil was different enough from vegetable >>> oil that I would need to titrate it and change the KOH amount. However, >>> I wasn't having much luck with the pH meter. One time it would be add >>> 0.4gm of KOH and the next time 0.01g would be too much. I thought I >>> didn't know how to use the meter. >>> >>> >> > The processor I made (assuming I would be using it by now) has 2) 75 >> >>> gallon tanks with individual heaters, controls, pumps, and stirrers. It >>> can be used as a 150gal unit or a 2-stage 75gal unit. (I've attached a >>> picture.) I can't wait to try it but haven't used it yet for fear of >>> making a lot of soap. >>> >> > >> >>> Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thomas Kelly wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Roger, >>>> Back up a bit. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I >>>>> >> >>> keep getting a questionable result. >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> By "tried this" do you mean peanut oil? >>>> If so, I have run batches with peanut oil mixed in. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Since it was new, I tried the same recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it >>>>> didn't really pass >the wash test and as soon as it got cold, it turned >>>>> into sludge. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Got cold??? The wash test is done at room temp 70-ish F (20-ish >>>> C) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I made a 2x75Gal machine that I >>>>> am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> (What's a 2x75Gal machine? .... a 75 Gal processor? 150 Gal processor?) >>>> Hold on now cowboy ..... let's not sign up for a marathon run before we >>>> up >>>> and walking. You don't want to turn gallons of good oil into gallons of >>>> goop. >>>> >>>> You might start by telling us step-by-step what you are doing. >>>> Ex 1L fresh, unused vegetable oil >>>> 200ml methanol >>>> 5.45 g of 90% KOH >>>> Method of agitation? >>>> Temp? >>>> 30 minutes reaction time >>>> Do you get a clear split? >>>> How long do you let it settle? >>>> How do you separate the settled glycerine mix from the biodiesel >>>> (separatory funnel?) >>>> >>>> Describe the results of the wash test, done at room temp, as to time for >>>> separation + appearance of layers. >>>> >>>> While it is important to be able to measure accurately, especially for 1L >>>> test batches, I have gotten along fine w/o a pH meter. >>>> Best Wishes, >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Roger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 10:13 AM >>>> Subject: [Biofuel] Test Batches with Peanut Oil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Has anyone tried this? It's all I had laying around to start with but I >>>>> keep getting a questionable result. Since it was new, I tried the same >>>>> recipe for virgin vegetable oil and it didn't really pass the wash test > >>>>> and as soon as it got cold, it turned into sludge. I wish there was >>>>> more pictures - not sure if I'm adding too much of something or too >>>>> little or what. I'm using some nice equipment (I work for a laboratory >>>>> surplus equipment company) such as a lab scale, pH meter, quality >>>>> glassware, hotplate stirrer and a 2L reaction vessel. I'm holding the >>>>> temperature right on, mixing for 30 minutes, etc. I have 90% KOH and >>>>> 99.9% methanol from a local chem distributor. Not sure when I'm doing >>>>> >> >>> wrong, but any advice would be great. I made a 2x75Gal machine that I >> >>> am dying to use and the used oil is piling up. >> >>> >> >>>>> Also, I don't know if I'm using my pH meter correctly. Can someone give >>>>> directions on proper use of one of these? >>>>> >>>>> >> >>> If anyone needs any special equipment, just ask. I even have tanks, >> etc. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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