FYI, from over at the Maui board...my post is the last one at the end.
Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca > Here's a web page on Biodiesel Discussion( > http://www.mauigreenenergy.org/discussionsponsors > .htm ) that you may be interested in reading: > > http://biodiesel.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tp > c&s=465094322&f=166094322&m=8503034935 > > Here are the messages I thought you'd be > interested in: > > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: Which SVO conversion kit should I buy? > Author: sickshaman > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > Which conversion kit should I buy? > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: Choosing a Kit > Author: greaselightning > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > If you want to spend a little more get the Elsbit > kit it has a computer that turns on and off the > switches for you. The tank looks like it was put > there by the factory price is twice the > greasecar. I hear greasecar is veeeerrrryyyy slow > in shipping(3 months min). Elsbit is german and > that can not be easy either. Greasel seems like a > good guy but his kit does not look as good as > greasecar but it is 1/3 the cost. Good Luck > Rob > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: I'm Choosing Greasel > Author: Greg from PA > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > I'm going with Greasel, since it supplies a fuel > tank for what you need. I used an old plastic ice > chest, but he sells 6 gal and 12 gal plastic > marine fuel tanks with heat exchangers in them. > They come with fuel gauges and he does a good job > of customer service, not that any any of the > others don't. If you like to spend your time > finding parts, make your own system. I was > quoted $800 for a locally made steel fuel tank. I > chose an ice chest and copper tubing for $45. The > guy in New England has steel ones. I prefer > having a small fuel tank and filling it every 300 > miles with my 5 gal jug of oil that can be in my > trunk next to my fuel tank. > > Greg > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: Greasel rocks! > Author: ppillard > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > Charlie's kit is top-notch. It simple, clean, > and foolproof. His customer service is supreme, > and he will bend over backwards to help you out. > I've been VERY impressed with every interaction > I've had with him so far. > > _________________________ > Pillard > "There can be only one" > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: Thanks for your advice... > Author: sickshaman > Date Posted: 20 May 2002 > Message: > But what is the average "down-time" for the > greasel kit before completely turning the car > off? Also, there seems to be, like any competing > businesses, many conflicts of opinions in both > the design and principles of using SVO between > Neoteric and Greasel....what's a beginner to do? > :confused: > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: Downtime should be the same for all the > brands out there... > Author: ppillard > Date Posted: 20 May 2002 > Message: > 'Downtime' as you call it, is dependant on the > vehicles fuel consumption rate, not anything the > conversion kits have to do with. Regardless of > which kit you buy, when you switch over to diesel > before you kill the car, you will have to run the > engine till the injection pump is clear of > veggie. On my lil' economy car, I have to run 8 > solid minutes before I feel good about shutting > down, but I can flip the switch no more than a > minute after startup. The less fuel efficient, > full size trucks out there can likely shut off > the grease around 4-5 minutes before shutting the > engine down. > > Hope that helps! > > _________________________ > Pillard > "There can be only one" > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: Not so > Author: Fatmobile > Date Posted: 21 May 2002 > Message: > This only applies to cars that work like a VW. > Those with no external fuel pump (the only pumps > are in the injector pump and it pulls the fuel > toward it). You didn't say what kind of car you > are converting. > I don't know how Neoteric is doing things. > The time it takes to flush your pump is very much > effected by the system you use. > The one solenoid, return to the front of the > pump setup takes the longest to flush. > As the fresh diesel is on it way to flush the > pump it is contaminated by the vegetable oil you > are trying to get out of the pump. You don't > flush it out of the pump at all. You simply send > it back into the pump again. That's not the only > problem with this system but without a fuel temp > guage you probably won't know about the other one > till you start idleing funny. > With other systems you can flush in one minute. > The loop system does allow for the quickest > starts. When the weather is good you can start in > vegy mode. If you have your vacuum guage hooked > up (ppillard) you'll see no extreme vacuum. (none > of these kits supply a vacuum guage) > In my opinion the loop system is the best setup > but none of the kit builders I've seen are doing > it right. > Greasecar uses a one 6-port solenoid. > Greasel uses one 3-port. > They should be useing two 3-port fuel solenoids. > So with Greasel, you only need to buy one more > solenoid. Whereas you would have to buy two > solenoids to repair the Greasecar kit and throw > the 6-port away. > The Greasel system looks like it uses a fuel > filter that doesn't hold much so you will have to > clean your fuel better or clean the filter often. > I don't think it has a drain either so my > backflush trick won't work with it. > I don't know what Greasecar uses for a filter. > If you want to see how I think it should be done > click on my profile and check my previous posts. > It bugs me to see these poorly designed systems > being sold but what I have to say just bounces > off these kit builders so I suggest you buy a > tank from them and build your own. > Remember...for a $10 donation to my R&D > department, I'll help you through it or I'll help > you improve the kit you buy. My system has a > light go on if there is an air leak which causes > too much air in the loop and it automatically > removes the air. My system also removes air > trapped in the antifreeze (without a garden > hose), etc.. > I know my site doesn't show much that isn't > already known but I'm sure people wouldn't show > support (with donations) to get something they > could get on my site for free. > http://www.geocities.com/vwfatmobile/ > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: 4x4 Fantasy > Author: sickshaman > Date Posted: 21 May 2002 > Message: > I recently purchased a four-wheel drive vehicle > with the intention of running it on > svo/biodiesel. I hope to inspire both students > and rednecks alike about the possibility of a > much greener future . Once its lifted and looking > mean, on the doors will be a large picture of the > earth with blatant eco-slogans underneath it > saying "OBEY YOUR MOTHER", just to freak people. > It has a six cylinder engine with a bosch > type-a, in-line plunger, forced circulation > injection pump. I'd love to have the means to > build a custom kit but I don't these days so I > must make the wisest choice based on the opinions > of my esteemed collegues. > I must say I was surprised to hear no one > mention the Neoteric kit. It was actually my > first choice based on Journey to Forever's > recommendation alone. Its creator has created an > excellent web site and has greatly contributed to > the integrity of this forum. So what do the > experts have to say? Vote in the name of all that > is green!!!!! :D > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: I think any kit is a lot of bullshit > Author: iser > Date Posted: 26 May 2002 > Message: > However I looked a greasels and I think it is a > good one . He seems to be very nice . > I never used a preheatet tank as far as in my VW > yet . You realy only need to buy one 3 way > elctric valve at all .Just loop the returning > fuel back into the filter again and use a wider > intake fuel line and thats it . Also I use a fuel > pump from http://www.dreiegmbh.de > Next I will buy greasels fuelpump . > there is a lot of things that can be home made . > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: I realy think any kit is no to much > money for it . > Author: iser > Date Posted: 26 May 2002 > Message: > I only purchased 2 valves 12 Volt , finally come > to the conclusion that I only need one and when I > run all returning fuel back into the filter it > will run much better . > So far I made that experience on my Mercedes also > with inline injection pump . Also I use a > homebrew heatexchanger and do not find it > necessary to use a preheatet tank . Unless the > temperatur is under the freezing point or close > to it . Around 6 degrees plus celsius will be the > point when I need to mix diesel under the > plantoil . > My heat exchanger is heating the oil up to around > 70 celsius and it will take a lot longer to heat > up fuel in a larger tank .There is no need to buy > a expensive kit at all in my opinion unless you > you are nor mechanik . But playing with this you > realy must have knowledge and a lot of horse > sensce to get this running . > Basicly there is nothing to do this . It is all > so simple that anybody will understand it . > There are so many different plans around to > switch the plantoil . Main thing is to heat it up > good and to be sure the injectors will not foul > up . Direct enjected engines will not run for a > long time . 2500 miles is actually nothing in my > opinion . If someone is reaching 50 000 miles on > that stuff than he was lucky at all . > My friend here works for MAN the German Truck > company that actually made the engine for the > Dodge trucks .He told me virtually all there > stationary engines that was runnig on veggiol > gave up after one year of running . > There is no guaranty that this will work great at > all . In my opinion , I would not , I would never > spent a lot of money to do this because there is > now assurance that this will work for good at all > . > So far I have passed more than 20 000 miles . > The direct injected TDI from Volkswagen will not > work for long and there is more attention needed > to the injectors . A fellow from over here works > on them so they have a better spraypattern . > The injectet fuel will burn than a lot better > without any residue . Cost for this is around 150 > $ per injector . Very important is the > heatexchanger and not the preheatet tank . That > one is only needed in cold countries and can be > built with anything around . > If you guys speak good German ,go to the databank > from http://www.fmso.de > and there is a data base on different cars that > was running on veggieoil . > In my opinion used veggie oil is not good for > direct injectet engines . They certainly will run > great for some time on it but eventually they > will fail .The piston inside is way different as > in preinjectet engines . > Best cars are Mercedes Diesels and VW s and some > Jampanes cars . But always Bosch is needed . > Never Lucas pumps > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: Greasecar kit > Author: Bob > Date Posted: 26 May 2002 > Message: > Have you ever looked at the greasecar.com web > site He advertises that his kit flushes in under > one minute because he does not use the same loop > as everybody else and he uses a 6 port and a 3 > port for the loop. His system pushes the svo > outand repaces it with diesel on the flush > returning the svo diesel mixture to the heated > filter that way the injectors are cleaned without > haing to burn off the svo. > Bob > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: GREASEL GREASEL GREASEL > Author: biodan > Date Posted: 27 May 2002 > Message: > Put mine in this weekend. Had a problem with the > return valve,(my mistake) Charles of GREASEL > called me from Japan to get it staightened out > !!! Now thats custermer service !!! you won't go > wrong with Greasel. my 82 jetta is running great. > :) > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: What about NEOTERIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Author: sickshaman > Date Posted: 29 May 2002 > Message: > I thank you for the assistance and stimulating > dialogue, however, noone has yet to mention > anything about Neoteric. Has anyone heard > anything about their reliability? > > Thanks Again.....I'm getting closer to leaving > the DINO DAYS behind!!! :p > ---------------------------------------- > > Subject: Our kit - Neoteric's, that is > Author: Ed B. > Date Posted: 11 June 2002 > Message: > Hi all: Glad I checked in on this board once in a > while! I'll jump right in here and discuss our > kit and how it evolved. I did a thesis project > for my MSc couple of years ago on this whole > topic, titled "Renewable Oil Fuels and Diesel > Engines as Components of Sustainable System > Design (it is on our site, as a pdf). The first > SVO system I built is pictured there - ugly,and > completed in about 3 days, but it worked. It was > a coolant-based hose in hose plus heat exchanger > setup. Then I started a company with Henry > Mackaay, and we called it Neoteric which means > "new" or "of recent origin", and comes from a > group of Greek poets who had the audacity to > challenge pre-existing notions of how poetry > should be - they challenged the status quo with > something new and, they thought, better. > > > Since then, Henry built an early system on a Ford > and again it was hose in hose, and he and his > family took their 28' 5th wheel from BC to > Ontario and back with it. I built a second system > with hose in hose, and then by the third one went > looking for simpler, reliable, faster heating > methods. The reasoning is all laid out on our FAQ > page. We built glow plug fuel heaters, which > worked ok but were too expensive and time > consuming to produce and relied on thermostat > control. > > One of those is still on my old 77 Merc, that I > drove from BC to Ontario, where my father now has > it. I just prefiltered a whole lot of oil, > switched my lines at the valve, filled the BIG > tank with SVO (since it was summer and a Merc, > this was ok...the pump could pull it through the > lines...some VW's it might not work so well), > filled the SMALL tank with biodiesel, a bunch of > jugs in the trunk and some under the (removed) > rear seat cushion, and did not need diesel fuel > until I got to Winnipeg or so. > > So, that worked pretty well. Just a few minutes > to warm up, switch over to SVO, take off. Then we > developed the VEG-Therm heater, using a > self-regulating method and efficient heat > exchanger tube. A coupe of prototypes with a PhD > specialist designer for this tpye of heater > later, we had the best balance of heating and > amperage draw possible. Simple, compact, > self-regulating. This gives instant heating, > versus waiting for the coolant to warm up. A > larger diameter tube supplies SVO. The fuel is > returned to the SVO tank, not looped. We had too > many problems with looped (air) and there is no > advantage to it in this system. There is a LOT of > return fuel in a diesel system, and returning to > the tank means you get the fuel, heated by the > VEG-Therm and the trip through pump and past > injectors (picks up more heat), going back to the > tank and thinning it quickly, so it does not take > long for a smallish SVO tank to get nicely > warmed. So it is six of one half dozen the other > whether you return it or loop it, but returning > it avoids the air issue entirely. > > Slight mixing when switching from one fuel to the > other has never been a problem. > > The VEG-Therm amperage draw drops off (variable) > depending on inlet temperature. > > We offer a separate coolant operated heat > exchanger for those that want it. We also offer a > 12V transfer pump that is equipped for oil (an > optional seal kit is included to convert it from > a "water" pump to an "oil" pump. We tried the > basic model - it lasted a week or two...the "oil" > kit installed seems to work just fine. We use > that for prefiltering in the shop and filling to > tank. > > We are careful about the WVO we use. We only take > in good Canola cooking oil, no shortening and no > grease.If we get some of that collected (say from > the bottoms of jugs), we make biodiesel out of > it. Then we use that biodiesel in the winter, to > blend with the WVO, and that allows for decent > filter life (we wish to stay with the OEM final > filter, not go to a coarser filter...although it > is tempting to go coarser at times and allow the > wax crystals easier passage...so far we resist > this idea - especially on the newer pumps, those > tolerances are very fine, and we think it is best > to not take chances with picking up dirt, rust, > wear particles or what have you in the system and > allow those through the pump. Everyone has to > decide this for themselves. We use the original > fuel fitler and both SVO and diesel (start/stop) > go through that. This gives a good purge on > shutdown, and since we are not looping, and since > there is a lot of return fuel in a diesel system, > it only takes a few minutes to clear the system. > No air bleeds, no extra 3-port circuits, no > chance of cross-contamination from a split line > in hose-in-hose, and much faster and easier > install time. (We can also supply a larger tank, > with a fuel gauge, or supply minus tank and you > get one locally) > > Regarding fuel valves - we used to use the > cheaper solenoid operated valves from Pollak but > they can fail and allow cross-flow of fuels. This > can result in drawing fuel from one tank and > returning to the other! So, we have gone to the > motor drive valve that is more money but designed > to prevent this. > > For prefiltering, after trying the bag thing > early on (a mess to them - got tired of it), and > various hydraulic pumps, cartridge filters, etc. > we have found that the least expensive and > easiest, cleanest, most convenient way to filter > WVO in the shop is to heat it to about 140F and > use the small pump described above and run it > through to 0.5 nominal rated coated paper filter > cones (in case you are wondering, normal white > paper cones are from 10-30 micron range - the > coating makes a difference!). If anyone needs a > high volume machine with a thicker filter, we can > supply that too, but its not for the small user - > maybe if you are doing 100 gallons a week or more > you go to that...for most people the simple cones > and racks that we supply work just fine. That's > all we use now - the filter machine and pump etc. > that we tried earlier are sitting in the corner. > > So, there you go, we set out to design the > simplest least expensive, lightest, most compact > system on the market. It works within the limits > we established, and those are basically that you > need to have oil that is liquid at the > temperature you intend to run it. So, if you want > to run crappy hydrogenated overused > lard/shortening/grease...go with the "grease" > guys. If you do your homework, you might decide > its best to use a good liquid oil and don't worry > too much about pushing the limits for cold > weather use. We run our WVO to around freezing. > New oil is good to well below freezing. Then do > the blends, do the diesel thing for a while in > winter, whatever. Save a lot of problems that > way. You just run up against the law of > diminishing returns - at some point too > greasy/too cold just turns into "not worth it". > > The rest of the time, it all works dandy. > > You don't hear as much from us because we are not > as aggressive on the marketing I guess (it's a > Canadian thing...we have little signs on our > truck/car instead of making them into rolling > billboards, for example - so I am sure Charles > from Greasel and the gentleman from Greasecar > will get more attention and sales driving around > the interstates of the US than I will, (sitting > up here in the paradise of the Okanagan Valley in > BC, avoiding driving in the first place), but if > you are looking for simple and effective SVO > system and other items I think you'll find that > our stuff is as well thought out as any and has > it's own merits. > > As for the guy that thinks all kits are > "Bullshit", fine...go build your own. But, > really, have a little respect for the efforts of > all the companies that have taken the time and > effort to develop version of kits that we think > will save people the effort of running around and > developing/sourcing their own stuff, and give > them a good system. Not everone wants to build > their own, besides if they do, we'll happily > sell just a VEG-Therm if they want some or all > electric heating as part of it, or maybe just > want to heat biodiesel (in winter, especially) on > its way to the filter. > > Nobody is going to get rich at this. > > Kind of nice to just open a box and have > everything there you need...kit, pump, > filters..the works, if you want it, and just get > going. Also nice to be able to install without > draining coolant, cutting lines, and installing a > bunch of hose clamps, in the case of our > approach. 6-8 hours to install, and about 2 hours > to remove if you need to. > > Regards, > > Edward Beggs, BES, MSc > http://www.biofuels.ca > > ---------------------------------------- > End of message(s) > ------ End of Forwarded Message ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
