Hey Chris, I'm speaking entirely of linguistic declaration of paragraph
boundaries, not presentation.
I reassert that Mr. Lambeth does confirm my statement that Mat 9:1 is
meant to be part of the paragraph ending chapter 8. You cannot do
otherwise without entirely ignoring my question to him-- or assert that
Mr. Lambeth entirely ignored my question to him.
To requote:
>>> There is a <PM> (paragraph break mark) after verse 1 in chapter 9. I
>>> would guess that this means that your editors disagreed with Jerome
>>> and think the paragraph ending Chapter 8 continues into the first
>>> verse of Chapter 9, which seems to me to be a fine conclusion. Can
>>> you confirm that 9:1 belongs with the paragraph at the end of 8? (or
>>> any similar case where the NASB does not feel that a new paragraph
>>> begins at each chapter mark).
His positive response to my request for confirmation clearly and
explicitely indicates his agreement that not all chapters begin a
linquistic paragraph.
I agree that the concept of a paragraph requires a begin and end. I
used milestones only because I can only confirm a paragraph _break_ (an
end followed by a beginning). I cannot assert that every chapter begins
a linquistic paragraph, due to Mr. Lambeth's confirmation of such. Thus
their markup is ambiguous in this matter and I can only point it out to
them and ask them to disambiguite their markup at some time in the
future. Until then, I cannot ignore his very specific confirmation to
my presupposition that Chapter 9 does not begin a new paragraph.
-Troy.
Chris Little wrote:
I think perhaps we are confusing presentation and semantic markup.
Pilcrows are just presentation forms of paragraphs. If "<p>...</p>"
means, for you, that whitespace and/or indentation will result, you're
thinking about presentation.
The fact is, for the purpose of encoding, I absolutely don't care what
the presentation will eventually be. What I care about is marking
paragraphs. In my world, paragraphs are real things. They have real
starts and real ends. And in OSIS, you encode them with container
elements: <p>...</p>, which don't specify eventual presentation at all.
You can't encode them with milestones because there is no such thing as
a paragraph without a start or a paragraph without an end.
My statement stands (and is correct) that every chapter of every book of
the KJV and NASB begins a new paragraph. The statement you quote really
does nothing but confirm that a new paragraph begins before Matt 9.2.
That is, it does not deny another paragraph containing only Matt 9.1.
I'll give you another example with EXACTLY the same structural
configuration:
<BN>MATTHEW
CHAPTER 1
<SH>The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah
{{40:1}}1 The <N1>record<MG976> of the genealogy<MG1078> of
<N2>Jesus<MG2424> <N3>the Messiah<MG5547>, <RA>the son<MG5207> of
David<MG1160b>, <RB>the son<MG5207> of Abraham<MG11>:
<PM>{{40:1}}2 Abraham<MG11> <N1>was the father<MG1080> of Isaac<MG2464>,
<N2>Isaac<MG2464> the father<MG1080> of Jacob<MG2384>, and Jacob<MG2384>
the father<MG1080> of <N3>Judah<MG2455> and his brothers<MG80>.
{{40:1}}3 Judah<MG2455> was the father<MG1080> of Perez<MG5329> and
Zerah<MG2196> by Tamar<MG2283>, <RA>Perez<MG5329> was the father<MG1080>
of Hezron<MG2074>, and Hezron<MG2074> the father<MG1080> of <N1>Ram<MG689>.
In both instances, you get a chapter start followed by a section heading
followed by one verse. Then you get a paragraph division followed by the
second and consecutive verses. You can't possibly claim that verse 1 is
anything other than the complete contents of the chapter's first
paragraph. Likewise, the section heading is very significant. These
always signal a new section (new <div>) and a new paragraph inside that.
How do we know this? Well, without exception, every <SH> mark in the
NASB is followed either by a verse with a <PM> or by verse 1 of a chapter.
There are basically two options:
1) The markup of the NASB is completely specified, and therefore every
chapter starts a new paragraph.
2) The markup of the NASB is vague and there is never any way to know
the extent of paragraphs.
In any event, we also know that every chapter of the KJV started a new
chapter because the typesetters took the translators' instructions and
put a section heading & dropcap at the beginning of each chapter to
indicate this.
--Chris
Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
My apologies for the bad timestamp on the previous send of this
message. Fixed time and resending to help the flow. And a good
opportunity to add one comment:
Chris, I understand that you would not say "bag what the translators
wanted, just put a <p> marker at the top of each chapter." It seems
we both think the translators (I do not hold the same regard for the
typesetters) meant something very specific, were not idiots, and we
should preserve their intent.
We are of the same spirit.
-Troy.
Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
In both the KJV and its genetic descendant, the NASB, every single
chapter, without exception, begins a new paragraph.
<quote who="me" recipient="Pike Lambeth; VP Ops; Lockman Foundation"
date="October 14, 2003 5:23 PM">
...
Version 2.0 of the OSIS (Open Scripture Information Standard) spec
should be available any day, and I have been fighting for a few new
mechanisms so that I might be able to completely encode your NASB
data in the OSIS specification.
I have a few questions where your comments might help me succeed in
getting these tags added:
1) To quote your data from Matthew 8:34-9:2
{{40:8}}34 And behold<MG2400>, the whole<MG3956> city<MG4172>
came<MG1831> out to meet<MG5222> Jesus<MG2424>; and when they
saw<MG3708> Him, <RA>they implored<MG3870> Him to leave<MG3327> their
region<MG3725>.
CHAPTER 9
<SH>A Paralytic Healed
{{40:9}}1 Getting<MG1684> into a boat<MG4143>, Jesus crossed<MG1276>
over<MG1276> {the sea} and came<MG2064> to <RA>His own<MG2398>
city<MG4172>.
<PM>{{40:9}}2 <RA>And they brought<MG4374> to Him a
<RB>paralytic<MG3885> lying<MG906> on a bed<MG2825b>. Seeing<MG3708>
their faith<MG4102>, Jesus<MG2424> said<MG3004> to the
paralytic<MG3885>, <RS>``<RC>Take<MG2293> courage<MG2293>,
<N1>son<MG5043>; <RD>your sins<MG266> are forgiven<MG863>."<RT>
There is a <PM> (paragraph break mark) after verse 1 in chapter 9. I
would guess that this means that your editors disagreed with Jerome
and think the paragraph ending Chapter 8 continues into the first
verse of Chapter 9, which seems to me to be a fine conclusion. Can
you confirm that 9:1 belongs with the paragraph at the end of 8? (or
any similar case where the NASB does not feel that a new paragraph
begins at each chapter mark).
...
</quote>
<quote who="Pike Lambeth; VP Ops; Lockman Foundation" recipient="me"
date="October 17, 2003 4:22 PM">
...
1. Yes, our translators thought the new paragraph should be at verse
2. I know there are more situations like this but I do not have a list.
...
</quote>
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