Applications you develop can quickly grow out of the baby-steps ways and into full-blown adolescence and a good primary school gets you some life skills, while preparing you for more advanced learning.
It's better to take a little longer to learn the basics of how and why everything hooks together, than to find yourself completely lost later. The forms framework isn't just about having things reusable; it's also about having something repeatable, testable & consistent. Symfony promotes rapid prototyping - but there's a flip side. When you have a demo, it often quickly goes into production. On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:42:18 +0200, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > > So maybe the beginner tutorials should start with simple things, like > handling a hand written html form and then later introduce some > extended features like sfForms, which makes your life easier. This is > done with security.yml and credentials: if you need more, you can use > sfGuard. The good thing about Jobeet is that it shows how fast you can > develop applications with symfony. But it hides the fact, that you > have to know very much about the different components, when you try to > change or add something there ... > > Well, i think it is really hard to satisfy everyone ... > > Michael > > > On 25 Sep., 12:27, Gareth McCumskey <[email protected]> wrote: >> I don't use the sfGuard either, just the sfBasicSecurityUser, and it >> works >> well enough and is really not all that complicated. I don't use the >> admin >> generator as I feel it creates elements that are far too generic for my >> purposes and usually my admin and frontend systems are too integrated. >> >> Just like Michael said, thats the beauty of symfony. As a newcomer you >> can >> start using what you want when you want it. Use compat_10 settings to >> stick >> to form helpers instead of forms framework and then switch to the forms >> framework when you are ready. A lot of things are this way in symfony >> and >> you are in no way compelled to use every plugin/feature that symfony >> provides. >> >> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 12:16 PM, [email protected] < >> >> >> >> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Sid Ferreira, and everyone complaining about the new forms, you don't >> > have to use them for simple things! >> > Just post your raw html form to an action, handle it with >> > getPostParameter() and do something with it. >> >> > It is NOT TRUE that you have to learn a lot of stuff just to do simple >> > things. >> >> > I don't use sfGuard, i don't use the generator, i don't use object >> > routing. I had the choice to learn and use them, or to do it my way. >> > And that's what i like about symfony. >> >> > Michael >> >> > On 25 Sep., 11:39, Sid Ferreira <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > I was thinking about this, while making a sf1.0 project... and >> indeed >> > > dispite of how good the new things in 1.2, it really got really >> > complex.In >> > > some ways, to a new commer, use symfony isn't a good idea he >> doesn't need >> > > only to use MVC and ORM anymore, he needs to learn (and almost >> master) >> > the >> > > symfony forms to the very first project. >> >> > > I mean, it's insane in this point of view that sf can't make it >> easyer to >> > > build a login form (let's ignore the plugin)... Almost against the >> 'KISS' >> > > principle. >> >> > > I think symfony is an expert weapon, but it is almost 'no newbies >> > > allowed'... >> >> > > ps: I hope I made my self clear about it. >> >> > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 04:20, Alexandru-Emil Lupu >> <[email protected] >> > >wrote: >> >> > > > Gareth, i might even say old php 3.. in php4 there were any oop >> > layering in >> > > > progress .. >> >> > > > Fabien, if i remember right (haven't work to much with Rails) >> symfony >> > > > folder structure is much alike with Ruby on Rails. By the way. >> Please >> > close >> > > > this non sense thread. >> >> > > > Alecs >> >> > > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Gareth McCumskey < >> > [email protected]>wrote: >> >> > > >> We recently hired a junior PHP developer, fresh out of college, >> > getting >> > > >> his first taste of using PHP AND symfony in a production >> environment. >> > We >> > > >> pretty much had to throw him in the deep end with using symfony >> and >> > the >> > > >> associated documentation and give him work to do. >> >> > > >> Guess what? Because of symfony's abstracted nature and the >> ability for >> > > >> developers to focus on business logic, he is resolving bugs and >> adding >> > new >> > > >> features all the time. The only time he stops to ask my help with >> > anything >> > > >> is when it has to do with our OWN code implemented in symfony >> and NOT >> > the >> > > >> framework itself. To me , thats evidence enough that the >> framework and >> > its >> > > >> structure is not difficult to learn and get into for a new user >> who is >> > > >> willing to take the time and learn it. >> >> > > >> If we had built our application without symfony we would still >> be very >> > far >> > > >> away from a releasable product costing the company more and more >> > money. >> >> > > >> All of your responses show someone who is stuck in the old PHP4 >> > procedural >> > > >> line of thinking where its create functionality line by line and >> you >> > are >> > > >> apparently not willing to invest the relaistically small amount >> of >> > time >> > > >> required to use symfony. >> >> > > >> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 3:34 AM, bghost <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> > > >>> And? Where you saw any recommendation to use <th> tags outside >> > > >>> <thead> ?? >> > > >>> I never said that any developer is stupid here. But now I have >> > changed >> > > >>> my opinion >> > > >>> under the pressure of your arguments. >> >> > > >>> Anyway, finally I would say this: >> >> > > >>> Most of you are calling for some alleged benefits that are >> hidden >> > > >>> behind terms >> > > >>> like "re-usable, re-factoring" or "developer can concentrate on >> > > >>> business logic" ... bla ... bla .. bla >> >> > > >>> 1st >> >> > > >>> What does it mean to do something re-usable? Do you really need >> to >> > > >>> spend >> > > >>> too much time on that if it will eventually be used once or >> just a >> > few >> > > >>> times? >> > > >>> I heard many times: "Yes, make it re-usable...yes, yes, >> > > >>> yes..ooooh....make it >> > > >>> re-usable!" even if that is justified or not. >> >> > > >>> 2nd >> >> > > >>> What is the limit? How deep a developer should go with the "re- >> > > >>> factoring"? >> > > >>> Is it necessary to split templates into numerous small >> fragments and >> > > >>> thus make >> > > >>> them an extremely confusing and difficult to track? I heard many >> > > >>> times: "Yes, >> > > >>> re-factore it ...yes, yes, yes..ooooh....re-factore it!" even >> if that >> > > >>> is justified or not. >> >> > > >>> 3rd >> >> > > >>> Most of you said that Symfony Framework enables developers to >> > > >>> concentrate >> > > >>> on business logic? Yes, that's OK. I just wanted to warn that in >> > these >> > > >>> efforts, >> > > >>> Symfony developers are exaggerating a bit, which resulted with >> the >> > > >>> intricate >> > > >>> logic of the Symfony framework that hides the flow of the >> application >> > > >>> to the level >> > > >>> where it is very difficult to understand and monitor the >> application. >> >> > > >>> This is my last post here. >> >> > > >>> WBR, >> > > >>> Ghost3D >> >> > > >>> On Sep 25, 2:52 am, Jeremy Thomerson <[email protected]> >> > > >>> wrote: >> > > >>> > I've avoided responding on this thread to this point because >> your >> > rude >> > > >>> > foul-mouthed criticism is ridiculously ignorant and malicious. >> > But, >> > > >>> since >> > > >>> > you once again call all developers here stupid, please be >> quickly >> > > >>> proven >> > > >>> > wrong by reading the "INTRODUCTION TO TABLES" by the W3C. If >> you >> > don't >> > > >>> know >> > > >>> > who the W3C is, please try to do a little research. >> >> > > >>> >http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.1 >> >> > > >>> > Jeremy >> >> > > >>> > On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 7:27 PM, bghost <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> >> > > >>> > > Ok Eno, >> >> > > >>> > > I visited that link and I did not thrilled because I found >> > something >> > > >>> > > wrong again: >> >> > > >>> > > <form action="/frontend_dev.php/contact/submit" >> method="POST"> >> > > >>> > > <table> >> >> > > >>> > > <!-- Beginning of generated code by <?php echo $form ?> >> > > >>> > > --> >> > > >>> > > <tr> >> > > >>> > > <th><label for="name">Name</label></th> >> > > >>> > > <td><input type="text" name="name" id="name" /></td> >> > > >>> > > </tr> >> > > >>> > > <tr> >> > > >>> > > <th><label for="email">Email</label></th> >> > > >>> > > <td><input type="text" name="email" id="email" /></td> >> > > >>> > > </tr> >> > > >>> > > <tr> >> > > >>> > > <th><label for="message">Message</label></th> >> > > >>> > > <td><textarea rows="4" cols="30" name="message" >> > id="message"></ >> > > >>> > > textarea></td> >> > > >>> > > </tr> >> > > >>> > > <!-- End of generated code by <?php echo $form ?> >> > > >>> > > --> >> >> > > >>> > > <tr> >> > > >>> > > <td colspan="2"> >> > > >>> > > <input type="submit" /> >> > > >>> > > </td> >> > > >>> > > </tr> >> > > >>> > > </table> >> > > >>> > > </form> >> >> > > >>> > > So, what is the problem here: >> >> > > >>> > > <th> tag within the HTML table should never be used >> > > >>> > > outside <thead> </thead>, because each web browser >> > > >>> > > could interpreted this in different ways! Now I understand >> > > >>> > > better why most of you loves the Symfony Form >> > > >>> > > framework - most obviously does not even basic >> > > >>> > > knowledge of the HTML. >> >> > > >>> > > WBR, >> > > >>> > > Ghost3D >> >> > > >>> > > On Sep 25, 12:11 am, Eno <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >>> > > > On Thu, 24 Sep 2009, bghost wrote: >> > > >>> > > > > This is bad formatted HTML - where is <table> tag? Using >> > <tr>, >> > > >>> <th> >> > > >>> > > > > and <td> without table - terrible ! >> >> > > >>> > > > As the example in the docs show, *you* must supply that: >> >> >http://www.symfony-project.org/forms/1_2/en/01-Form-Creation#chapter_... >> >> > > >>> > > > -- >> >> > > >> -- >> > > >> Gareth McCumskey >> > > >>http://garethmccumskey.blogspot.com >> > > >> twitter: @garethmcc >> >> > > > -- >> > > > As programmers create bigger & better idiot proof programs, so the >> > universe >> > > > creates bigger & better idiots! >> > > > I am on web: http://www.alecslupu.ro/ >> > > > I am on twitter:http://twitter.com/alecslupu >> > > > I am on linkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/alecslupu >> > > > Tel: (+4)0748.543.798 >> >> > > -- >> > > Sidney G B Ferreira >> > > Desenvolvedor Web >> >> -- >> Gareth McCumskeyhttp://garethmccumskey.blogspot.com >> twitter: @garethmcc > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. 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