Hi Rainer,

Welcome back. I hope the vacation with family was relaxing and fun.

I understand your frustration. 

Let me be clear however, that requiring reviews during WGLC is
certainly not a new requirement; reviews during WGLC have ALWAYS been
a requirement of work being submitted to the IESG for advancement.
Working group chairs got lax for a while, and submitted documents that
were obviously not ready for advancement. The IESG now requires better
reviews by the WG before accepting documents for advancement. If the
WG provides the reviews, I believe we stand a very good chance of
finally getting these through the process to RFCs.

David Harrington
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rainer Gerhards [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 3:10 AM
> To: David Harrington; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [Syslog] WGLC and document advancement
> 
> WG,
> 
> still no WGLC comments or any further responses...
> 
> Let me share my deep frustration with you. I have cautioned 
> against low
> participation levels last year when the question was if the 
> WG should be
> concluded or continue to work. Then, the overall opinion was 
> that there
> were sufficient interest in the topic. With that on my mind, I put
> another round of effort into syslog-protocol. I am now working on
this
> for several years. I spent considerable work on it. Each time when
it
> looked close to finish, either some radical new thoughts came 
> in (which
> is fine), an old issue was re-itereated (which I do not consider to
be
> OK) or some other unexpected show-stopper showed up. This time, it
is
> the insufficient review. I am thoroughly disappointed and now need
to
> think that all the time I put into this effort is wasted. 
> This is quite
> regrettable.
> 
> However, I do not intend to spent any more time on it without the
> *solid* indication that the work can be completed and published. As
> such, I will NOT make any further edits at this time and I will also
> hold my planned review of other WG documents. I will also refrain
from
> commenting on any technical issues. Probably the best option at this
> stage would be to recommend to the IESG to finally conclude the WG.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rainer 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rainer Gerhards [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 2:34 AM
> > To: David Harrington; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [Syslog] WGLC and document advancement
> > 
> > David,
> > 
> > Thanks for the reminder.
> > 
> > I have read -transport-tls several times, only been unable to have
a
> > close look at the latest increment. To my understanding, 
> > there were only
> > minor changes to the document, so I am still happy with it.
> > 
> > I am concerned about the lack of feedback to my response to your
> > concerns on the "enc" SD-ID and transparency of MSG and 
> > STRUCTURED-DATA
> > in -protocol. I am hesitant to do any edits until there has been
any
> > final discussion of these issues (reminder: I am most 
> probably able to
> > edit starting September, 18th).
> > 
> > I have roughly reviewed -transport-tls (due to my time 
> > constraints). All
> > in all, it looks good enough to me. My main concerns have 
> already been
> > addressed by adding the version number. I think, however, this
point
> > needs some more discussion. 
> > 
> > There are many other points in -tls that could be discussed. 
> > HOWEVER, I
> > think discussing any of them now would make us miss our 
> > milestone. What
> > is there is well enough. It could be better. Let's do that at
later
> > stage (version field permits this). 
> > 
> > We have been discussing syslog-protocol and -tls (and the 
> work leading
> > to it) for 3 or 4 years now, often going in circles. Participation
> > levels have varied greatly. My personal opinion is that 
> many folks are
> > finally bored with going ever and ever over the same 
> arguments. But I
> > may be wrong. Getting some work done would definitely help us.
> > 
> > We should not aim for the perfect. In an ideal world, we 
> > would have only
> > ideal solutions. But we do not life in an ideal world. If NASA
feels
> > strong enough to launch a shuttle with an imperfect fuel 
> > cell, we should
> > probably feel strong enough in putting some non-ideal but
obviously
> > useful work to completion. So please comment on the drafts and
open
> > issues.
> > 
> > Rainer
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: David Harrington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 1:23 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: [Syslog] WGLC and document advancement
> > > 
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > There are good things and bad things that come with 
> having a new WG
> > > co-chair.
> > > I think I have helped the WG by driving the completion of 
> > milestones.
> > > That's the good part.
> > > The bad part is I bring my own opinions of what adequate 
> > review means.
> > > 
> > > The IETF has started using a new process, called document 
> > shepherding,
> > > for the advancement of documents to the standards-track. 
> The chairs
> > > are given much more responsibility and authority to decide
whether
> > > documents are ready for advancement. They are expected to write
up
> > > their analyses of WG issues, consensus, and degree of 
> review of the
> > > documents being submitted, and these analyses will be reviewed
at
> > > every step of the process after this point, as the members 
> > of the IESG
> > > try to determine whether the document really is ready for 
> advancment
> > > to standards-track. You can see the details they expect us 
> > to provide
> > > by reading draft-ietf-proto-wgchair-doc-shepherding-07 
> > (which has been
> > > expanded quite a bit from the -05- draft used during your
earlier
> > > WGLCs).
> > > 
> > > I have shepherded a number of documents through the process, and
I
> > > know how difficult it can be to get documents through the 
> > process, and
> > > how much the documents can be delayed during the 
> standards-approval
> > > process if they are not really ready for submission to 
> that process.
> > > 
> > > I am concerned that the documents have not gotten adequate
review
> > > during WGLC. There have been very few comments made, and I 
> > would like
> > > to see more reviews done by the members of the WG for 
> each of these
> > > documents. 
> > > 
> > > If you have problems with the documents, speak up now, so 
> the chairs
> > > can be sure your concerns are recognized and have been
addressed. 
> > > 
> > > If you have read the document, and found no important problems
and
> > > have no significant objections to the document, and belive 
> > it is ready
> > > to be submitted to the advancement process, please send a 
> > note to the
> > > WG saying so. 
> > > 
> > > David Harrington
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Syslog mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Syslog mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/syslog
> > 
> 


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