Of course, it is well-known that I type way too fast and push the send
button without proofing!!!
YUP. Agree with you on the Kenyan stuff, but that applies to all runners not
just Kenyans. Many different ways to get there. When we talk about training
it's always best to refer to standard deviation from the mean.
malmo
And Mr. Entine. I mean it about the book. I want one. Meant to buy it long
before you took over an obscure track related list-serve.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sean other [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 5:50 AM
> To: malmo; Jon Entine; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
>
>
> Hi Malmo,
>
> So Jon knows nothing about running but knows something
> about training for running (double negative). As for
> pontification, your post seems to fit that bill quite
> well.
> As usual, the truth probably lies somewhere between
> the two extremes. I know both types of Kenyan
> athletes. The ones who do mega distance and the ones
> who do less than 100 km a week. I also know many
> Kenyan athletes who never walked to school or church
> but then again I know of many who walked/ran 7 to 8 km
> to and 7 to 8 km from school every day. Some of these
> lads quoted 70 to 80 km training per week. They were
> of course not including the 80 km a week to and from
> school or the morning and night time trip out to check
> the live stock.
> This leads me to believe that there are at least 3
> types of succesful Kenyan Distance runners. The less
> than 100 km per week brigade, the guys who claim less
> than 100km per week but actually do a lot of
> supplementary training, and the mega distance guys.
> There seems to be little difference between the
> performances though.
> Sean
> --- malmo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Took a break from the list to protest the censorship
> > Nazis at UO. When I
> > heard you were pontificating again I just had to
> > come back.
> >
> > Jon, you know nothing about running, nor do you know
> > nothing about training
> > for running. Period. End of story. Citing Kipketer,
> > an 800 meter guy, for
> > doing 30 mpw is downright dumb. T and F 101: 800
> > meter is not a distance
> > event. Besides, even John Smiths 400 guys run that
> > much.
> >
> > We all laugh at the "running to school" myth, as
> > well. But I'll tell you
> > that one agent who represents many Kenyans told me
> > of his visits there: on a
> > any given Sunday morning, the roads will be filled
> > with men, women and
> > children, walking up to 10 miles to and from church.
> >
> > Now send me an autographed copy of your book, which
> > is an exploration of the
> > obvious. I'll pay the suggested retail. Read "The
> > Slave Trade" (Hugh Thomas)
> > while you're at it.
> >
> > your pal, malmo
> >
> > Quit misusing the word "serendipity" while your at
> > it. It's driving me (and
> > Mr. Safire) nuts.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf
> > Of Jon Entine
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 11:39 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Richard:
> > >
> > > I've read most of what you site and what I wrote
> > in no way "contradicts
> > > virtually all published assessments of Kenyan
> > training practices. I have
> > > also discussed this with many Kenyan runners, from
> > Kip Keino to Ibrahim
> > > Hussein to Wilson Kipketer. They all laugh at the
> > gross
> > > generalization that
> > > Kenyans are great runners because they ran to
> > school as children,
> > > run longer
> > > mileage in training, and train at higher
> > intensity.
> > >
> > > ³I lived right next door to school,² laughs Wilson
> > Kipketer,
> > > world 800-meter
> > > record holder, dismissing such cookie-cutter
> > explanations. ³I walked, nice
> > > and slow.² Some kids ran to school, some didnıt,
> > he says, but itıs not why
> > > we succeed.
> > >
> > > And for every Kenyan monster-miler, there are
> > others, like Kipketer, who
> > > gets along on less than thirty. ³Training regimens
> > are as varied
> > > in Kenya as
> > > any where in the world,² notes Colm OıConnell,
> > coach at St.
> > > Patrickıs Iten,
> > > the famous private school and running factory in
> > the Great Rift
> > > Valley that
> > > turned out Kipketer and other Kenyan greats.
> > OıConnell eschews the
> > > mega-training so common among runners in Europe
> > and North America who have
> > > failed so miserably in bottling the Kenyan running
> > miracle.
> > >
> > > As for empirical evidence, much has been collected
> > by Bengt Saltin and Tim
> > > Noakes who consider such myth making (Kenyans
> > train harder as the total
> > > explanation for their success) as pretty silly.
> > >
> > > Could Kenyan training methods be a factor in the
> > success of some of their
> > > great athletes? Of course. Is there one clear
> > pattern of training that
> > > almost all Kenyans ascribe to? Of course not? Even
> > if there was,
> > > would that
> > > explain the magnitude of Kenyan success,
> > considering that many of their
> > > training principles have been adopted, and even
> > magnified, by
> > > athletes from
> > > other countries? Of course not!!
> > >
> > > So...I believe we'll have to just end this with
> > the reality -- the modest
> > > claim-- the facile explanations that training is
> > the key to Kenyan success
> > > is far too simplistic (and erroneous in key ways)
> > to explain the
> > > phenemenon.
> > > It's obviously bio-cultural, an assertion which no
> > reasonable
> > > observer, let
> > > alone a scientist, would dispute.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4/29/01 12:59 PM, "t-and-f-digest"
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:18:03 -0700
> > > > From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Subject: RE: t-and-f: Empirical evidence
> > > >
> > > >> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 08:38:37 -0700
> > > >> From: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >> Subject: t-and-f: Empirical evidence
> > > >>
> > > >> With all due respect, what you have supplied is
> > anecdotes, not
> > > evidence.
> > > >> Sure, you can find examples all over the map.
> > If I find one
> > > example of a low
> > > >> intensity, low mileage champion runner, I can't
> > generalize
> > > that that applies
> > > >> to "all Kenyans," any more than I could take
> > the results of
> > > one race and say
> > > >> that indicates a trend. The empirical evidence
> > would result from a much
> > > >> larger database of examples. I don't say for
> > certain that
> > > Kenyans train less
> > > >> than Americans. What I do say without any doubt
> > is that glib
> > > statements that
> > > >> Kenyan success can be explained by the "fact"
> > that they train
> > > more is not
> > > >> only pure speculation, it is not supported by
> > the evidence. My
> > > argument is
> > > >> against "environmental determinism", not for
> > genetic
> > > determinism. Of course
> > > >> training plays a role--more in some cases, less
> > in others.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jon
> > > > Are you saying that you're observation, which
> > contradicts virtually all
> > > > published assessments of Kenyan training
> > practices (e.g., Train Hard Run
> > > > Easy, Running Research News, magazine articles,
> > interviews with
> > > Americans
> > > > and Europeans who train with the Kenyans, etc.),
> > is the only valid
> > > > viewpoint? You have failed your own standard
> > because you have
> > > not offered
> > > > substantial evidence either. I think you before
> > you can make
> > > such a broad
> > > > contradictory statement that you need to do an
> > indepth
> > > empirical study that
> > > > takes the training regimens for the top athletes
> > from selected
> > > nations and
> > > > statistically compare the training levels. I
> > know that you'll have some
> > > > difficulty in getting accurate training records
> > from the Kenyans because
> > > > many do not keep training logs, and even then,
> > the recorded
> > > distances and
> > > > times may be inaccurate for technological
> > reasons. Given the apparent
> > > > lack of "evidence" we have to go with the
> > majority opinion of those who
> > > > have independently observed these
> > patterns--Kenyans tend to train harder
> > > > than other athletes around the world, and this
> > likely
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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