Javbw, Thanks for the detailed discussion. I think I agree with you that "take-and-bake" places are a type of restaurant or fast-food; that's how they are being tagged in the USA.
What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in developing countries and specialty grocers in cities? Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience, shop=general, shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket? I don't think shop=food is a good idea, but I do think there are shops that sell groceries but do not really fit in any of those 4 existing categories. The other option would be to use shop=general for small groceries, because many of them also sell other nonperishable items, similar to a rural general store/shop. But that might lead to some confusion too, and it wouldn't work well for a shop that specializes in selling Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean foods, as found in some big cities. Joseph On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:28 AM John Willis <jo...@mac.com> wrote: > > On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:50 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > shop=food > > > + cuisine=local/polish. > > > > -1 > > shop=food is called a market. we have that already. cuisine=* is for > restaurants and other non-shop places. > > > amenity=fast_food > fast_food=take-n-bake (or whatever is decided: take-n-bake=yes/no/only, > etc) > cuisine=perogi > > > TL;DR: > > - make a “takaway” or take-n-bake” subtype of amenity=fast_food **for > freshly-prepared-food items to be taken home, cooked, and served. ** > > > - Unless it is the ingredients for making a food, or sells large amounts > the food in bulk to take home, shop=* is wrong. Unless this pizza shop is > selling you pizza ingredients or bulk boxes of frozen pizza - I don’t think > it is a shop. > > - don’t pollute shop=* with restaurants and fast food. probably most uses > of shop=ice_cream and shop=bakery are already not proper for the shop key, > and most uses should be tagged amenity=fast_food + cuisine=* . a > take-n-bake pizza shop or a shop selling a tray of freshly prepared, yet > uncooked perogis or Gyoza is very close to a fast_food takeaway shop > selling cooked pizza. > > - People should be free to define a business using amenity=restaurant or > amenity=fast_food using any cuisine=* value - and tags that go against it > (amenity=ice cream) should be depreciated. > > - being conscious of creating proper tags for “prepared food to be eaten > now” that are distinct from shops that sell ingredients (supermarket, > butcher shop) or bulk (shop=ice cream) will solve both of the above > issues. > > - not solving this issue with generic tags that are not conscious of this > issue will lead to a lot of “reinventing the wheel” for each type of food > and immense tagging pollution through confusion. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > I think it is better to use an existing amenity=fast_food or similar tag, > and not to mix shop=* and cuisine for the job. We have have fast food, > restaurant, pub, cafe, and probably a couple others. perhaps we need a > sub-tag of one of those to be “take-n-bake” type shop. > > > make a tag solution for takeout / takeaway/ premade meals or items, > otherwise you get a ball of confusion and disagreement, like the tagging > for an ice cream shop: > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=ice_cream> > > "A place that sells ice cream and frozen yoghurt over the counter.” > > > and now there is > > shop=ice_cream "For places selling ice cream to take home” > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dice_cream > > or > > amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream (? I guess these exist somewhere, where > ice cream drinks are sold?) > > or > > amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (proper replacement for > amenity=ice_cream) > > > There should be standardized tags for an ice cream parlor, where people > sit down for an extended period of time and enjoy custom made ice cream > treats at booths and tables. > > If this place sounds similar to similar to an ice cream “restaurant” - > that is because it *is* a type of restaurant. > > They are rare, but a proper ice cream parlor is basically an ice cream > restaturant. > > amenity=restaurant + cuisine=ice_cream is an ice cream parlor. I don’t > need to define a tag with “ice cream parlor” in it, because it is merely > the “cuisine” offered. > > Baskin Robbins, Cold Stone, and a stand selling ice cream in cones/cups in > a mall/storefront are all amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (replaces > amenity=ice_cream) > > a true shop=ice_cream is selling large amounts of pre-packaged or produced > ice cream for you to take home - or the ingredients you make your own at > home (eg: brewing_supply). > > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Food.2C_beverages > > ****all the shops listed there have the primary purpose of selling you > ingredients to make other things.**** > > Places where we sell prepared food to sit and eat is a restaurant. the > coffee shop sells bagged coffee and brewing machines as it’s primary > purpose - not brewed coffee drinks like a cafe. the bread shops we have in > Japan would easily be amenity=fast_food + cuisine=bread - they are full of > prepared food for quick meals or snacks - not shelves full of bread loaves > or bags of rolls to make dinner with. There are a couple, but it’s not the > focus of the place. I consider this an error in using the shop=key. > > I do not want this error to spread via a generic shop=food tag. > > *We made the distinction between restaurant and fast food for this very > reason.* shop=* shouldn't be involved. > > A butcher shop isn't cuisine=meat for this reason - they are shops. > > I bring up ice cream not because I care so much about it - but it is a > good example of tagging that that cannot be applied to other types, and can > be fixed and be much more flexible using generic tags. > > We should create tags describe the type of *business*, as this greatly > affects how the customer views the business. This also makes it impossible > to tag actual “shops” - a “meat shop" (butcher) is possible because we use > other tags to define where meat is consumed as food. > > There are some types of places where putting the type of "food" in the > cuisine= tag would be silly - > > - a tea shop sells loose tea in bags and other items for brewing tea, it > is not a cafe. > > - a honey shop sells jars of honey and various derived products, it is not > “prepared food” nor a cafe selling drinks made with honey. > > These are appropriate to be a shop=* tag (shop=tea, shop=honey). > > This separates it from cuisine=* - because that is for places that serve > ready to eat food. > > We already have vends= and produces= and other similar tags. if you want > to use an existing one or make a new one to use with a [[ shop=[thing] + > foo=[thing type] ]] tag scheme, then =food is a bad value, and paring it > with cuisine=* is worse, as it mixes the idea of food and cuisine into the > shop key, which will lead to confusion and problems. > > Javbw > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >
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