=path is such a horrible catch-all tag and one that is extremely entrenched - I 
am surprised no one has implemented a path=trail subtag, similar to sidewalk, 
so we can separate all the hiking trails and other “hiking” paths, and then 
apply different hiking limitations you wouldn’t expect to find on a sidewalk or 
playground way. 

Mixing trails and sidewalks in the path key is as horrible as mixing up runways 
and train tracks in a “highway=not_car” way. 

Javbw

> On May 21, 2020, at 9:47 PM, Andrew Harvey <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 17:25, Daniel Westergren <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
>> Expanding on the discussion about attributes for trails. What's the current 
>> status of the highway=path mess? OSM is increasingly becoming more useful 
>> for forest trails than for car roads (for which other sources are usually 
>> more up-to-date, to be honest). But the default rendering doesn't 
>> differentiate between a forest or mountain path and a paved, combined foot- 
>> and cycleway in an urban environment.
> 
> There are plenty of apps/maps out there which do differentiate this, so 
> that's not a tagging issue.
>  
>> Obviously we're not tagging for the renderer and the default OSM rendering 
>> is discussed elsewhere. But has there been any fruitful discussing on this 
>> topic that will help users to tag these clearly extremely different kinds of 
>> "paths" in a way that make them more useful for data consumers, as well as 
>> easier to differentiate for renderers?
>> 
>> Sure, tags like surface, width, trail_visibility can be used. But in most 
>> cases, highway=path is used with no additional tag. The JOSM presets for 
>> foot- and cycleways use foot|bicycle=designated, but that doesn't 
>> necessarily tell anything about the surface or size of the path, or even its 
>> importance in terms of usage by pedestrians, hikers and cyclists.
> 
> Those are very useful tags, plus smoothness and sac_scale.
> 
> You can also use foot=designated to indicated its signposted for walking or 
> foot=yes to indicate you are allowed to walk but not signed for walkers.
> 
> There are tags for ladders, rungs, ropes which are useful so less able people 
> can be informed if a trail features these obstacles.
> 
> The lifecycle prefix is good for tagging abandoned paths that have 
> significant regrowth and authorities have closed off and trying to regenerate.
> 
> You're right a highway=path without any other tags covers a wide range of 
> possibilities, that's why it's great if you can add other tags.
>  
>> When highway=path was introduced, forest trails were not widely mapped and 
>> not the main consideration when introducing the tag as a way to deal with 
>> cases when footway or cycleway could not be used.
> 
> The highway value describes what the path was built for, the other tags 
> mentioned tell you a lot more about the suitability of it.
>  
>> I realize this topic has been discussed extensively over the years. But  now 
>> more than ever OSM is becoming increasingly important for hikers, trail 
>> runners and MTB cyclists for whom a forest or mountain path is something 
>> completely different to an urban foot- or cycleway.
> 
> If you have any material suggestions, I'd be very keen to hear.
> 
> Disclaimer: I build a website and map for hiking using OSM 
> (beyondtracks.com/map) data and yes I do take into account sac_scale (path is 
> red when it's technical), trail visibility (sparser dot when the trail is 
> less visible), ladders, ropes and rungs.
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