Dear all, Asa wrote Sat Sep 17 2022 14:11:45 GMT+0200
In one of the Snowdon photos, a woman is using hands for balance.
I just observed that for Snowdon, the link https://www.walkupsnowdon.co.uk/snowdonia-walks/crib-goch/ was replaced by https://www.walkupsnowdon.co.uk/snowdonia-walks/scramble-up-y-gribin-ridge-and-y-lliwedd/ containing photos actually showing some hand use. My last post was based on the first link only, this post on both. Without knowing that trail, so from the photos alone, hands seem really _required_ only at 2-3 single points. Just because of these few points tagging a whole long, well walkable way (look at pic #7 or #9) as scramble feels plain wrong to me. Like tagging a whole long trail as ladder just because there are 4-5 rungs installed. For me, it would feel much more appropriate to have a highway=path containing single points tagged as barrier=step/block/debris/... where a step is so high you need a hand for balance or pull up. Or tagging the node as scramble=yes, see below. Is there really no more clear example for a whole way requiring to scramble? Some trail where everybody clearly sees at first glance it's going to be really difficult to do without hands? I mean pictures like https://cdn-images-2.click-mallorca.com/imagenes/excursiones/entreforc-torrent-pareis-21153-o.jpg just for something that does match the current definition of highway=scramble – which Torrent de Pareis does just not (despite perfectly matching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambling) because it contains few climbs above UIAA II that are preferred by most non-climbers to do with rope.
I guess, that makes it a grade1 scramble then, whereas use of hands to advance might make a higher grade scramble? C.f. https://www.thebmc.co.uk/understanding-scrambling-grades The site is operated by a business, no idea if that is just something they made up or if use is spread wider.
That web page is quite interesting, thanks for sharing. Who has sufficient experience to judge whether it's not only the publisher's but a more wide spread definition? Before doing a grade 2 scramble, they suggest to learn at least climbing V Diff which is an UIAA IV- according to converter in https://www.thecrag.com/en/article/grades Because the current proposal clearly limits highway=scramble to UIAA II, highway=scramble could only be used for scrambling grade 1 – but what about grade 2 and 3? In shade of this and other aspects, I encourage to *re-think Peter's suggestion of scramble=yes respectively scramble=1|2|3 which would allow to properly tag _all_ scrambles,* whatever grade, whether way or node (if it's only single points requiring hands like high steps), whatever way type (including via_ferrata that can be well scrambled without equipment, track, river bed,...). Also, that would bring OSM's definition much closer to the one posted above and to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambling
I like on the proposed tag, that discriminating by use of hands makes it much more easy on mappers, many of which just do not have the desire to become proficient in sac_scale.
I agree and at the same time I do not see a much better information precision until we have a much clearer definition of "when are hands required" 🙄 That's no real issue for scrambles of grade 2+3, just grade 1.
I doubt, that many routers or renderers will have to change anything. To the opposite, very few routers and renderes will have to.
Thanks for triggering re-thinking it. I guess you're right – as a hiker and climber, I use virtually only data consumers that are able and expected to show/consider scrambles, but many people do only car navigation, kayaking, cycling,... and will even be happy to get rid of "all the useless clutter" 😉 Best regards, Georg _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
