Hi Marc,

Could you please forward/translate this reply to Michael and anyone who
believe that Liège (and other places?) contain main road classification
errors that produce bad routing.  One-way streets and the like will be
another subject.
I suggested below to compare the OSM classification with that of Michelin.
Martin Koppenhoefer replied down below that Michael is wrong because
"we" (they) "do more or less like Michelin". But he doesn't say if it is
more or less and how much.
He asks "Where do you see differences?", meaning that he did not try to
find them.

Consequently, I have made my own Michelin compatible overpass query
<http://overpass-turbo.eu/?q=CltvdXQ6anNvbl1bdGltZcSCxIQ2MF07Ci8vIGdhdGhlciByZXN1bHRzCigKICDElyBxdcSeeSDEqiB3YXlbImhpZ2jEtnkiPSJtb3RvcsS_Il0oe3tiYm94fX0pxJXEq8S_xLnEu8S9xYnFgnByxI1hcsWAxYvFjcWPxZHFk8WVxLTFl8S3xZnEvMS-xLfFgSJzZWPEiGTFocWjxYzFjsWQxZLFlMSVxLTFmMS6xa7FnCJ0xJ7EjMW4xYrFusWmxb3FqcWrxLjGgsWbxbDFgnVuY2xhc3NpZmllZMaKxaXFvMWoxZbEtcWsxpHFr8WAxYLEocabZGVuxohsxqHFu8Wnxb7EtArFqcStxZ5pxrDEoMSixKTEpgrEkCDFkGR5xJU-xJXHg3NrZWzErnTFv8WNc3R5bGU6CsSWKkRlZmHHgCDFs3TEjG5ncyBmxYfGpnlzKi8KxL8ge8S0b3BhY2nHlTowLjXGpXdpZMScOjPGpcW1bMWHOmJsxLDGpX3HmsWYxZrGqT3FhMWGxYjEt13Hs8Wqx7bHuMe6ece8LjnIgMiCyIQ0yIdvyIlyOsShZMiPyJHFrMiTxL89xrttxbjImse0xKsgyJ3Huce7x73Io8aAyKVoOsinxLTIiMiKyK3Ir8exyLHGg8S3PcWzxbVuxbfFosi4yJzHt8i9yKDIv8ikyIPJg8mFxKvJh8ireceOyIl3yYrIksmNeT3GhnLGiMmUyJvIusi8yJ_IocmAxZfJgsmEyKjIqjrJomzJpMmmyYzGksmpxqzIgsavxrHJlcmwyZfJssmayYHJnMm3yYbIqciKZ8Shx4fEtMiQx5rHm0jFrmzFrnQgxJxlIMe4xIx2yp_HsmFmyasgxpdpY2vGvGfHr8mLyKDKoWnKo8mvxKvJsci-yKLJm8iEOMm4yYjGn8mKCsWT&c=BL83OJVENO&R>
(thanks to the author of the original) that is using the same colors as
Michelin (1).

At *very first (short) sight*, I am surprised that Martin did not spot
that the ref=N3 road that's going north-west is primary (in red) mostly
but is interrupted by secondary segments (in yellow) Rue de Hesbaye
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/301189193#map=17/50.64889/5.55263> and
Rue Eugène Houdret <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/237917909>.  As
well as in Rue Louis Jamme
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/368855374#map=18/50.63813/5.58499> to
connect Place Delcour <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/28611081> to
primary N90 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/28659889> and primary N610
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/368855373> (2). N610 should in theory
be secondary but I completely agree with Michelin to make it debatable
and make it primary like the Namur road should.

I did not investigate further (I'm short sighted indeed) but I suggest
that anyone contesting an OSM route compared it with the same routing by
Michelin, tried to find an explanation by comparing my overpass
<http://overpass-turbo.eu/?q=CltvdXQ6anNvbl1bdGltZcSCxIQ2MF07Ci8vIGdhdGhlciByZXN1bHRzCigKICDElyBxdcSeeSDEqiB3YXlbImhpZ2jEtnkiPSJtb3RvcsS_Il0oe3tiYm94fX0pxJXEq8S_xLnEu8S9xYnFgnByxI1hcsWAxYvFjcWPxZHFk8WVxLTFl8S3xZnEvMS-xLfFgSJzZWPEiGTFocWjxYzFjsWQxZLFlMSVxLTFmMS6xa7FnCJ0xJ7EjMW4xYrFusWmxb3FqcWrxLjGgsWbxbDFgnVuY2xhc3NpZmllZMaKxaXFvMWoxZbEtcWsxpHFr8WAxYLEocabZGVuxohsxqHFu8Wnxb7EtArFqcStxZ5pxrDEoMSixKTEpgrEkCDFkGR5xJU-xJXHg3NrZWzErnTFv8WNc3R5bGU6CsSWKkRlZmHHgCDFs3TEjG5ncyBmxYfGpnlzKi8KxL8ge8S0b3BhY2nHlTowLjXGpXdpZMScOjPGpcW1bMWHOmJsxLDGpX3HmsWYxZrGqT3FhMWGxYjEt13Hs8Wqx7bHuMe6ece8LjnIgMiCyIQ0yIdvyIlyOsShZMiPyJHFrMiTxL89xrttxbjImse0xKsgyJ3Huce7x73Io8aAyKVoOsinxLTIiMiKyK3Ir8exyLHGg8S3PcWzxbVuxbfFosi4yJzHt8i9yKDIv8ikyIPJg8mFxKvJh8ireceOyIl3yYrIksmNeT3GhnLGiMmUyJvIusi8yJ_IocmAxZfJgsmEyKjIqjrJomzJpMmmyYzGksmpxqzIgsavxrHJlcmwyZfJssmayYHJnMm3yYbIqciKZ8Shx4fEtMiQx5rHm0jFrmzFrnQgxJxlIMe4xIx2yp_HsmFmyasgxpdpY2vGvGfHr8mLyKDKoWnKo8mvxKvJsci-yKLJm8iEOMm4yYjGn8mKCsWT&c=BL83OJVENO&R>
with the Michelin map
<https://fr.viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Liege-_-Liege-Belgique?>
(my "Michelin info" message helps the wise JOSM users too), and asked
people with local knowledge if they know better than Michelin.

Last point is what source:???=Michelin ??? to use to prevent a StijnRR
or like arbitrarily destructing well thought out tagging without
notifying the author. I suggest
source:highway=https://viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans 2016 2016.

Kéne afêre à Lîdje and I hope that this work will be useful elsewhere too,

Cheers

André.


(1) As white would not fit for residential, I used grey.  I'm surprised
indeed that no unclassified roads turn up in blue but that doesn't
affect routing.
(2) why the heck do those people adore splitting?

On 2016-09-15 17:02, André Pirard wrote:
> On 2016-09-13 18:21, Marc Gemis wrote:
>> Hallo,
>>
>> I was contacted by a mapper from Germany with whom I worked on turn:lanes.
>> He has to following question, can someone with local knowledge inform
>> us about the road classifications ? I have the impression a lot of
>> streets are indeed residential. Feel free to reply in French, I'll
>> translate it to English for him.
>>
>>
>> [snipped]
>> Now I want ask you about another problem.
>> Coming from here
>> http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/comment/13515#Comment_13515
>> I checked Liege to find out the mapping of roads there:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/imn
>> My guess is, that unclassified is used wrong there and that is the
>> reason for strange routings. My opinion is that unclassified as the
>> lowest kind of connecting roads do not end at city borders and have or
>> need common connection to same or higher class inside of towns or
>> villages. For me routers should avoid residentials and lower as much
>> as possible. Do you have any idea to check and correct this in Liege
>> to make routing better?
>>
>> If there are any questions, please ask.
>>
>> Regards
>> Michael aka hurdygurdyman
> In order to produce good routing using the *main* roads (1), ...
> why not adopt in OSM the same classification as Michelin
> <https://fr.viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Liege-_-Liege-Belgique?>
> (2)?
> They should know something about routing, shouldn't they?
>
> Michelin
>       
>       
>       
> BE ID/type
>       Nxx
>       Nxxx
>       other
>       many houses
>       rare houses
> OSM
>       primary
>       secondary
>       tertiary
>       residential
>       unclassified
>
>
> Inside town, the main advantage is that streets are then classified as
> either secondary/tertiary or residential/unclassified
> according to whether they should be used or not for routes from town
> place to place.
> Please note that when a street is promoted to tertiary status, the
> fact that it contains houses gets disregarded
> (and hence I wonder if it's a good idea to consider houses  for road
> classification rather than using an additional residential attribute
> (yes, I know it's the way "we" do it)).
>
> I am willing to explain JOSM users how to compare OSM and Michelin easily.
> Please send me a *private **reply* to the next message "Michelin info"
> to get it.
> I would do a part of Liège myself if it's organized by someone
> distributing the tasks.
>
> Cheers
>
> André.
>
>

On 2016-09-15 17:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Generally, I think we are doing it more or less like Michelin in your
> table. Where do you see differences? Clearly the classification of a
> road should not change just because it enters a settlement.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin




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