I like it. + "in the event of dispute... the default language is English."? .....although I'm not sure how to define dispute'.
On Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 11:07 Ben Proctor, <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Chris (and everyone else) for your very helpful contributions. > > I've tried to synthesise the discussion on this thread and would like to > propose the following for the Wales section of the Multilingual Tagging > page on the OSM Wiki. > > This would be a slight change from the current entry > > BEGINS/--- > > In Wales many, but by no means all, places and features are named > differently in Welsh and English. > > *Instances where the name is different in Welsh and English* > > The name tag should contain the name widely used by the local population. > > This should be either the name used in English or the name used in Welsh > but not both. > > If the name included in the name: tag is that used in English, name:cy can > be added to show the alternate name (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language > code for the Welsh language). > > If it is the name included in the name: tag is the name used in Welsh, > name:en can be added to show the alternate name (en is the two letter > ISO639-1 language code for the English language). > > Examples: > > name: Welshpool > name:cy Y Trallwng > > name: Biwmares > name:en Beaumaris > > It should not be necessary to add both name:en and name:cy though it is > not harmful to do so. > > *Instances where the name is the same in Welsh and English* > > The name: tag should contain the name. > > It is not, in principle, necessary to add either a name:cy or a name:en > (since there is only one name in both languages). > > However > > Multi-lingual tagging in Wales is currently patchy. Adding a name:cy tag > even though this will duplicate the information in the name: tag would help > other mappers distinguish between cases where multi-lingual tagging has not > yet been applied and cases where the name is the same in Welsh and English. > > Example: > name: Caernarfon > name:cy Caernarfon > > ---/ENDS > > > I *think* this largely synthesises the discussion so far. I'd welcome more > comments on this. > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:40 PM Christopher Jones <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hi Ben, >> >> Personally, I don’t see the point of >> >> name: Swansea >> name:en Swansea >> name:cy Abertawe >> >> It's stating the obvious that if name:cy is not the same as name: for a >> place in Wales, the name attribute is the English, and visa versa. It’s a >> little close to “tagging for the renderer” for my taste. That said it costs >> little to duplicate it in practice, so rock on if that’s what you want to >> do! >> >> Regarding what should be in the name tag, we have a set of flawed options… >> >> You initially suggested using a “widely” known by rule, this by its >> nature favours the English names. The majority of the Welsh population are >> primary English speakers, and despite a huge amount of time and money being >> spent on welsh language laws and education provision that’s not about to >> change in any of our lifetimes, even the welsh governments hugely ambitious >> target is for 1M welsh speakers by 2050, that still less than a third of >> the population. >> >> • always use the name that is used in Welsh >> >> In Gwynedd where 65% of the population identify as able to speak welsh, >> this might make some sense, in Blaenau Gwent where its 7.8%, this makes no >> sense. (Figures from the 2011 census) >> >> • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a >> hyphen (which is the practice in some other countries) >> >> I’m going to refer you to >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020478.html >> where I made my argument against this (tl;dr - its ugly, confusing and >> there are much better ways of achieving the aim (ie localised renders)) >> >> • use the name on local signage >> >> I’m going to assume you mean to use the first name on the local signage >> because the vast majority of signage has both English and welsh names >> (where they both exist), indeed its been a legal requirement for them to do >> so for quite some time. The major issue with this is since the Welsh >> Language Measure of 2011 councils have a duty to ensure "that the Welsh >> language is treated no less favourably than the English language” this >> ensures that on any sign made in the last 10 years Welsh is first >> regardless of local usage. >> >> So we end up with the status quo…. >> >> • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is >> what the wiki currently suggests) >> >> This too has issues, the main one being its hard to verify, it relies on >> local mappers being able to reach a consensus. >> >> To me, this remains the pragmatic option! >> >> Thanks for reading! >> >> And Ben, thanks for taking on the welsh render! >> >> — >> Chris - not a Welsh speaker, but ran cyOSM, the first multilingual OSM >> render many moons ago. >> >> >> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 12:10, Ben Proctor <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far. >> > >> > I'd like to draw out what I see as the key threads of the discussion so >> far: >> > The use of :cy and :en name tags should be encouraged. It allows more >> flexibility in rendering and adds clarity. So far this hasn't been a very >> controversial part of the discussion. >> > >> > I think the wiki could be revised to emphasise this without causing too >> much concern. >> > >> > >> > >> > There isn't consensus on the use of the name: tag. I think there >> several suggestions have been floated: >> > • always use the name that is used in Welsh >> > • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is >> what the wiki currently suggests) >> > • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a >> hyphen (which is the practice in some other countries) >> > • use the name on local signage >> > We have had advice that OSM should maintain neutrality. I'm sure that >> is the sensible position to aim for. This tends to point us to using the >> name on local signage or the name used by the "local population". >> > >> > From my perspective identifying the name used by the local population >> is likely to be fraught in many cases and so a mapper would probably be >> best advised to refer to local signage. >> > >> > Local signage will frequently show the cy: name and the en: name. >> > >> > So I *think* this might be pointing us towards suggesting the name: tag >> should reflect local signage. This would inevitably lead to more dual >> naming in the name: tag. >> > >> > >> > What does everyone think? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 5:08 PM Andy Townsend <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > Hi Gruff, hi Ben, >> > >> > On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote: >> >> >> >> The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful >> for this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a single >> name tag for each place name - giving the impression that one language has >> precedence over another. >> > Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence >> over another". If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for >> everyone to use. It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map using >> only :cy names (as Ben and Andy have pointed out, >> https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does exactly that already). Other maps can >> choose to use :en names in one area and :cy in others (see >> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9&lat=51.93&lon=-4.182 >> for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or English-first, >> or use different colours for different languages, or, or... >> > >> > The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map. >> > >> >> >> >> With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If >> we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and that >> OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to respect >> native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't. Could we >> take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place names where >> that's possible? >> > OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be neutral - >> see >> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf >> . It favours "on the ground" current usage. The Data Working Group gets >> _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official language of country X >> is Y, therefore all placenames in country X should be displayed at >> osm.org in language Y". Where the majority of people in an area speak a >> different language to the majority of people in the rest of the country, it >> is only fair to reflect that local language in the "name" tag. OSM should >> not be making decisions about which placenames are more "authentic" than >> others via some sort of "historical authenticity test". Imagine trying to >> apply that to Kaliningrad https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442 >> (look at all the "old_name" tags there for context). In Wales, OSM has >> occasionally had mappers making "forced language changes" both ways - >> either changing names in predominantly English-speaking areas to Welsh >> versions of the original English and English speakers changing original >> (and most common in local usage) Welsh names to English versions. >> > >> >> One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an >> external body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place names >> that we can refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language Commissioner >> provides a recommended list of standardised place names for Wales which is >> licensed under OGL 3.0: >> >> >> >> >> http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx >> > Different OSM communities do this in different ways. I believe that in >> Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which may differ from >> local usage. Sometimes that loses some local colour - in Dublin "Anglesea >> Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar Môn" but now in OSM it's just "Bóthar >> Anglesea". See also https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 which >> I've heard referred to as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots of politics >> both national and local associated with that). >> > >> >> >> >> All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM >> and not a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't go >> against the group decision on this and have been quite conservative with my >> edits so far because I know it's a huge topic to get into. Overall I think >> you should be congratulated for broaching the subject and trying to pin >> down a policy on it as it really does stir up a lot of strong sentiment in >> this part of the world! >> > As I'm sure Ben and Mapio Cymru would echo, thanks for making sure that >> Welsh names of places are recorded where they currently are not. It always >> strikes me as a bit jarring to see English names jumping out in >> predominantly Welsh areas at https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ (which will >> use the default "name" tag if name:cy is missing in areas where it's trying >> to show Welsh names). >> > >> > Moving on to Ben's original mail: >> > >> > On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion, >> replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows): >> >> >> >> [starts/---] >> >> In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place >> is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So >> name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru. >> > Where I suspect there may be further questions is where a place is >> known in Welsh-speaking areas as one name and in English-speaking areas as >> another. In OSM typically the "name" tag would be set according to the >> locally-used language, so "Yr Wyddfa" for >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169 makes sense to me. >> > >> > That gets tricky for areas that include multiple languages - >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437 is currently "name=Cymru / >> Wales" in OSM, but I'll let people who are actually from that area comment >> on whether that's appropriate or not. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature >> is known in English. >> >> name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature >> is known in Welsh >> >> >> >> Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example: >> >> >> >> name: Swansea >> >> name:en Swansea >> >> name:cy Abertawe >> >> >> >> This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so >> rather than duplication is conveying useful new information. >> >> [---/ends] >> > I'd agree that that bit (duplicating names) does make sense for >> essentially the same reasons as you - so that people do know that "yes >> there is an English name" and "yes there is a Welsh name". Otherwise if >> someone was to change the name there to "name=Swansea / Abertawe" it would >> break map.atownsend.org.uk which explicitly tries not to show compound >> names in Wales, England or Scotland. Someone who does want to show >> compound names can of course do that using "name:cy / name:en". For >> completeness, as you also mention, some OSM communities do use compound >> names. The Brussels region of Belgium is another example, and hyphenated >> names there are I believe "the official names". That sort of tagging >> hasn't traditionally been done in Wales, England, or Scotland though. >> > >> > Best Regards, >> > >> > Andy >> > >> > For completeness - I'm both a member of OSM's Data Working Group who >> tend to handle some of these language disputes and separately to that the >> developer of https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ . >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Talk-GB mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Talk-GB mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >> >> _______________________________________________ > Talk-GB mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >
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