Tom and others, I think you raised a very important point here. Many do not understand how very different the evolution of screen readers is between the Microsoft and the Apple platforms. In addition, many do not understand the much greater control Apple exercises over development within its platforms, especially IOS.
Beyond that, I don't think it is accurate to either say that things are dramatically bad with Microsoft nor that they are perfect. While I have been involved with technology and the NFB for some time, I am not trying to state NFB policies, but rather my own observations. I think we have seen some "slippage" for the lack of a better term of Microsoft's attention to accessible lately, and that concern has been raised with them. While it is frustrating that the Edge Browser is not accessible, I agree with those who have pointed out that the Edge Browser is not really a good measure of the priority given to accessibility. It really is still an unfinished product. Windows Phone 7 is also not a good example of accessibility having a low priority. That was a sort of "starting over" for Microsoft in many ways, and we don't know where that is going to lead yet. However, there seem to be other cases where accessibility bugs have been left for the next major release of Office or the next release of the operating system even though previous releases are still officially supported. The inability to create or edit an Outlook 2013 signature is one example. This is related to another bug where the envelope addressing dialog has text that can't be read or edited in Word as well. For both of these issues, there are workarounds, but the less technical among us would have difficulty with them. We can probably accept that in most cases, these are not show stoppers, but it is also fair to ask, as has been done, how text not being accessible could slip through their process in the first place. One still feels that accessibility is an after-thought more than it should be. We can, with grattitude, applaud Microsoft's efforts to make each operating system release pretty accessible for the most part. Some of us get frustrated with how things change, but that frustrates many sighted people as well. Blind people are not the only ones who have adjusted slowly to the ribbon, for example, but that is really separate from accessibility, except possibly for the longer serious of keystrokes that must be used to carry out some functions. However, the pressure put on screen reader developers by the constant changing of the basic operating system leaves less time for other innovations. I don't know what the answer is for that. While it is true that we are a very, very small market and that there is really no reason to take us into account in a business model, we can't afford to let that happen. If we did, many of us would find ourselves unemployed. What has been done is to amplify our market share through legislation. Both NFB and ACB have played a role in this. Having laws in place gives us a lever to raise the priority we would otherwise not have. This isn't to say that there are not many good intentions within Microsoft, Apple, and other companies, but I fear we need more than good intentions to avoid falling too far behind.. The bottom line, though, is that we have to be smart in our approach to getting accessibility. As has been said, it isn't ever going to be perfect and we need to pick our battles. On the other hand, we already have more power than our market share alone would give us, and we have to make sure that we keep and even expand that power if we want to maintain our ability to be employed. Best regards, Steve Jacobson -----Original Message----- From: Talk [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 2:10 PM To: Bryan Peterson; Window-Eyes Discussion List Subject: Re: Accessibility: A Reality Check And one might argue that the immaculate conception of VoiceOver was due to the fact that Apple had/has a large presence in schools. Federal, state, municipal funding, and the law they invoke was the God of that birth. there's no law suit in these cases. They're simply banned if they do not conform. On 8/13/2015 2:50 PM, Bryan Peterson via Talk wrote: > One might still argue that it was more a means to avoid lawsuits than > anything else. > > > > Focus your powers and prepare for buttle. > -----Original Message----- From: Peter Duran via Talk > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 11:33 AM > To: 'Darrell Bowles' ; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' ; 'net bat' > Subject: RE: Accessibility: A Reality Check > > You are apparently unaware of the history at Microsoft! Yeah, the Narrator > program is a dog, so what. Nevertheless, Microsoft wanted to have > accessible products, as Bill Gates announced at a Microsoft conference over > a decade ago. That's why they invited the JAWS and Window-Eyes folks to > participate in development work. > > Don't you remember the announcement a year or so ago from GW Micro when > they > unvaled their joint partnership of screen reader accessibility. > > Microsoft has bundled Window-Eyes with Office products and gives them a way > free now; what more commitment do all of you expect from Microsoft? > > Peter Duran > > -----Original Message----- > From: Talk > [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Darrell Bowles via Talk > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 12:42 PM > To: net bat; Window-Eyes Discussion List > Subject: Re: Accessibility: A Reality Check > > Actually, the only communities that are legally discriminated against the > communities that have people who are disabled. You actually think, that > Microsoft cares about accessibility? Narrator didn't even become anything > usable until Windows 8. It will never be up to the standards of a > Window-Eyes, or even NVDA, because Microsoft absolutely does not want to do > anything. Apple on the other hand, has at least implemented a fully > featured > screen reader and, on every device they create or ship, that screen reader > is available. Voiceover far out does anything that Microsoft word called > accessible. It is only because of companies like AI squared, that we even > have an accessible experience on windows. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 13, 2015, at 12:11 PM, net bat via Talk > <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> if you think apple , microsoft and other companies are comitted to > accessibility think again. they caved in because of all the law suits from > blind organisations and presher by the same organisations on the > polatitions > to pass laws to force accessibility on these companies. few are doing this > out of the goodness of there hearts. if they don't comply they could be > forced out of buisness. >> which will not happen because the polititions are in the back pocket of > these companies. >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Duran via Talk >> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 2:19 AM >> To: Talk >> Subject: Accessibility: A Reality Check >> >> What's this "second class" citizen nonsense? What's this "poor me" > attitude? >> I don't get it! >> >> The basic fact is: A major release of a product always has problems >> because of the sheer complexity of the product. That's the way it is >> so get over it! It has nothing to do with accessibility or the lack >> of. It has nothing to do with economic status, race, religion, sexual >> orientation, or the weather! >> >> No doubt, there are hundreds of things about Windows 10 that are >> bugging millions of sighted users at present; get over it; get real; stop > whining! >> They will get fixed; just wait for the next release if you are so >> unhappy. >> >> Both Apple and Microsoft are committed to accessibility for their >> products; it's good business; it's the federal law! The W3C >> Consortium sets accessibility standards worldwide, and the big >> companies try to meet them and keep up. Complexity is the "enemy" not >> Apple, Microsoft, Google, and so on. >> >> The problem: The more folks have, the more they want. Back when I >> was a college student, I relied on the technology at the time, books >> recorded on cassettes. I had to rewind tapes over and over again to >> find the stuff I needed to read for class the next day, a laborious >> process indeed. Now, I perform similar tasks, but with an accessible >> computer using search commands, and get annoyed when a search takes >> more than a few seconds. Go figure! >> >> Google surveys show that users get frustrated if Google searches take >> more than 10 seconds; sighted people whine too when frustrated. >> >> Every time GW Micro releases a major upgrade, this list becomes a >> "whine list" which makes me need a gin and tonic. I can't wait for >> the fixes to Windows 10; thereafter, amazing accessibility will be >> available on a multitude of devices: computers, tablets, smart phones, >> and who knows what else. And the great thing, Microsoft will have a >> single user interface across devices so I will need to learn only one >> set of commands to work with them all. >> >> Someone on this list just complained about the "ribbon bar" now in >> some more Windows apps; well, Microsoft is trying to unify its user >> interface and thus simplify the user experience. Yeah, people don't >> like to change; my sighted wife hates Word 2013 because she doesn't >> know how to use the ribbon bar, and she refuses to read my tutorial >> about it. That's her problem, not Microsoft's! >> >> Peter Duran >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/netbat%40comca > > st.net. >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/dgbowles%40msn > > .com. >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/peterduran2015 > > %40outlook.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/bpeterson2000% 40cableone.net. > > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/tom.kingston%4 0charter.net. > > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/steve.jacobson %40visi.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
