This would not be a air comparison now, Window Eyes progressed much faster than JAWS since 1996. ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Kiehne via Talk To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Russ Kiehne Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 9:42 AM Subject: Re: contacting Doug.
Check this out from times past! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:49:26 EDT From: Jamal Mazrui <[email protected]> Subject: CSUN "Dueling Windows" Sensory Access Foundation has published a "Dueling Windows" report in the Spring 1996 issue of Access Review. It summarizes a competition among Windows screen readers that was held at the 1996 CSUN conference in March. I am prefacing the article with some tabulations I did with its data. Since the article does not quantify the performance of each screen reader according to its criteria, I did such an analysis for the interest of readers. I assigned a value of 2 for accomplishing a task, 1 for accomplishing it with difficulty, and 0 for failing it. If anyone observes an error in my arithmetic, please let me know. Artic's WinVision accomplished: 7 accomplished with difficulty: 2 failed: 6 total points: 16 average: 1.06 Berkeley's OutSpoken for Windows accomplished: 9 accomplished with difficulty: 5 failed: 1 total points: 23 average: 1.53 GW Micro's Window-Eyes accomplished: 5 accomplished with difficulty: 1 failed: 9 total points: 11 average: .73 Henter-Joyce's JAWS for Windows accomplished: 13 accomplished with difficulty: 1 failed: 1 total points: 27 average: 1.8 IBM's Screen Reader/2 accomplished: 13 accomplished with difficulty: 1 failed: 1 total points: 27 average: 1.8 Syntha-Voice's Window Bridge accomplished: 5 accomplished with difficulty: 4 failed: 6 total points: 14 average: .93 TeleSensory's Screen Power for Windows accomplished: 5 accomplished with difficulty: 7 failed: 3 total points: 17 average: 1.13 Based solely on this analysis, JAWS for Windows and Screen Reader/2 were tied for top. They were followed by OutSpoken for Windows, Screen Power for Windows, WinVision, Window Bridge and Window-Eyes. Let me remind readers that Windows access products are rapidly developing so that new versions might lead to significantly different results today. In fact, some developers have already made enhancements to address problems encountered at this competition. ---------- Dueling Windows: An Overview by Kenneth Frasse (re-printed with permission of Sensory Access Foundation from Access Review, Vol. I, No. 1, Spring 1996) Abstract In March, at the CSUN International Conference on Technology and Persons with Disabilities held in Los Angeles, California, Mark Nelson of the Foundation for Blind Children hosted a pre-conference seminar called "Dueling Windows". This seminar attempted to contrast and compare graphical user interface (GUI) screen review software in applications for Windows. The format of the seminar was to pose identical tasks to each of the vendors in alternating order and have the vendors demonstrate the ability of their products to perform the specified tasks. Since SAF does not sell, distribute, or endorse any single GUI screen reader, we attempted to generate an objective review of the GUI screen readers demonstrated. Editor Similar to the 1995 Closing the Gap presentation of Dueling Windows, Mark Nelson of the Arizona-based Foundation for Blind Children coordinated another Dueling Windows at the March CSUN conference in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles seminar differed in several respects from the first seminar at Closing the Gap, not the least of which was that the seminar was six hours long. It was similar to the Closing the Gap seminar in that it was composed of questions and tasks that each of the vendors had to answer or perform. Notably, Greg Meise of the Kansas-based Missing Link Technologies, Kerry Malone-Cook of the Southern Oregon Goodwill, and Jay Stiteley of The New Jersey-based Seeing Eye, Inc. joined Mr. Nelson as the three panelists who would present the questions of the day; these panelists also formed the impetus for creating Dueling Windows. I wish to take a moment to explain the presentation and approach of this article so that the reader may be as clear on the issues presented as possible. I will present Dueling Windows in five sections: 1) Who was there: Which GUI software were represented at the seminar and what are some of the fundamental equipment differences between them that the seminar results might not make obvious for the reader; 2) Technical Set-up: What was the technical set-up for the seminar; 3) Environment: What are the advantages and disadvantages of the Dueling Windows environment; 4) Results: The Dueling Windows results; 5) Summary and commentary. Who was there Seven GUI screen reader developers were represented at the seminar. These included: 1) Artic Technologies's WinVision 2 v2.16; 2) Berkeley Access's outSPOKEN for Windows v1.2 (vb26 public beta) 3) GW Micro's Window-Eyes v1.03; 4) Henter-Joyce's JAWS for Windows (JFW) v1.2; 5) IBM's Screen Reader/2 (SR/2) v2.0; 6) Syntha-Voice's SLIMWARE Window Bridge v2.21; 7) TeleSensory's ScreenPower for Windows (SPW) v1.47B. Nearly all GUI screen readers were represented by their respective owners/developers/staff except for WinVision which was represented by one of their California authorized dealers, Paul Hendrikson. Window Bridge also opted to have a student user demonstrate the latter portion of the seminar in lieu of Niel Cooper who demonstrated the first segment. The other participants were Josh Miele of Berkeley Access, Mike Lawler of GW Micro, Ted Henter and Glen Gordon of Henter-Joyce, Inc., Guido Corona of IBM, and Scott Duncan of TeleSensory, Inc. Several of the GUI screen readers claim to possess electronic braille display support, but TeleSensory was the only vendor who brought and used their own PowerBraille 40-cell display; unfortunately, the airlines misplaced TeleSensory's PB-40, and Mr. Duncan was unable to demonstrate the braille display ability until later in the afternoon. (TeleSensory claims that one of the strengths of ScreenPower for Windows is its braille display support. SAF will soon be testing and comparing braille display support, and the results will be published in ACCESS REVIEW. Technical Set-up The seminar was performed on 7 identical Pentium computers with 16 megabytes of RAM; these machines were generously donated by IBM. Each of the computers had a 17-inch monitor that was turned 180 degrees away from the participant and facing the audience so that the audience could review where the participant was in their manipulations. Additionally, a large overhead screen displayed to the audience the monitor of the individual vendor who was performing tasks; vendors were not allowed to visually review the monitor. All audible feed from the computers was sent to DECtalk voice synthesizers which were in turn fed into the main PA of the room. Each vendor installed their own GUI screen reader and peripherals associated with their software. Aside from TeleSensory's eventual use of the PB-40, IBM's Screen Reader/2 used an external keypad from which all operations were performed. Mr. Corona did have one piece of software that differed from the other vendors; IBM uses their own Web Explorer for Internet access while the other GUI screen readers use Netscape for their access to the Internet. Since real-time access to the Internet posed a tactical impasse, the vendors had to download prepared pages from their own hard drives; it was assumed that this would mostly resemble real-time operation on the Internet. Lastly, the seminar was split into two three-hour sessions with an emphasis on spread sheets in the morning, and an emphasis on Netscape and word processing in the afternoon. The applications used included Microsoft Access, Microsoft Excel, Netscape (Web Explorer for IBM), and Microsoft Word. Environment It is important to understand the context and limitations of the Dueling Windows environment with respect to GUI screen readers. In so doing, the reader can better establish where more inquiry may be appropriate, as well as where, and when, GUI screen readers can directly address the user's needs. Generally speaking, the fifteen questions from the Dueling Windows panel posed common, direct tasks for the vendors to perform. The reader can determine the general state of GUI affairs through the entire seminar, but there are several cases in which the reader cannot determine the cause of a certain result. In several cases, vendors' systems crashed, and they were obligated to re-boot their systems; in some cases, it was not possible to determine exactly what the cause of the crash was. It is important to acknowledge that there are numerous ways to program in Windows for a desired result, and, consequently, there are inherent problems with the way Windows applications have been programmed. Since it is SAF's belief that most beginner users do not know how to configure the speech parameters or profiles for various Windows environments, it was also difficult to determine whether a GUI screen reader could not access something on the screen, or whether this problem could have been solved by altering the speech configuration; in short, there are minor and major obstacles, and Dueling Windows could not afford the vendors the time to really address this other than to allow them to verbally state whether they could, or could not, perform a task. Naturally, the ease with which a user can access their application or configure their speech software is important, even critical, but this detail could not be discussed because of time constraints as well. Though the general approach and philosophy of each vendor became increasingly apparent as the seminar passed, the more subtle distinctions of each vendor's approach could not be related through the Dueling Windows context. None of this is to say that the seminar should, or could, have been planned differently. It is simply necessary to understand that any competitive context for any product is sometimes misleading in only reviewing the statistical results. The seminar was well-planned, well-organized, and extremely thoughtful and reasonable in its approach and inquiry. Results The following results are displayed in a similar fashion as did the Dueling Windows panel. There were three categories of scoring; the vendor either achieved the task, achieved the task with difficulty, or failed to perform the task. For the purpose of our review of the seven vendors, "achieved task" means that the vendor was able to achieve the task with good efficacy and few keystrokes; "achieved task with difficulty" means that the vendor had to try repeatedly, the task required an inordinate number of keystrokes or searching, or multiple modes or cursors were required to achieve a task that was simpler in design than performing it; "failed task" simply means that the task was not accomplished. The panel rotated through the vendors so that no single vendor could always have the benefit of his predecessor's insight; the results here shall be by vendor in alphabetical order and will include additional comment for clarification. A comment "none" can mean just that, or it can mean that there was insufficient data to determine the cause of the outcome. It should be noted that this article is not to promote any single vendor, so it will concentrate its comments on GUI screen reader's ability rather than their failure. (More comment on the evolution of GUI screen readers will be presented in the Summary section of this article.) Each of the fifteen questions shall be presented, and followed with each vendor's performance. Note: The first 4 questions regard Microsoft Access, MS's database. 1. Find and launch Microsoft Access. WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved task Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none Screen Reader/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved task Comments: none SPW: achieved task Comments: none 2. Using the file menu and dialog box, open the file called dwdb from the \dwfiles directory. WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved task Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved task Comments: none SPW: achieved task Comments: none 3. Open the employee table in view, arrow down and tab into the employee data, and demonstrate how to read the field data and field title. WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not read either cell contents or header. outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to invoke mouse cursor to read header. Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Could not read either cell contents or header; very verbose. JFW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Read cell contents but had to enter mouse cursor mode and search to read header. SR/2: achieved task Comments: Screen Reader/2 was the only program that could read the field and header without entering into an additional mode or review mode, or having to press numerous keystrokes just to confirm the header. Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to re-boot. SPW: failed task Comments: none 4. Close the employee table window (CTRL+F4), and from the View menu select Query (Alt+V, Q). Now select the DWquery, and in two separate dialog boxes you will be prompted to enter data . In the first you will be asked to enter a position. In the second you will be asked to enter a country. Demonstrate your program's ability to find and read the appropriate prompts. (Editor's note: the prompt here is located on the line above the entry field.) WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not re-read edit fields. outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Could read dialogue box, but did not speak automatically and needed to enter mouse cursor mode to re-read the field. Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Very verbose; could not re-read edit field. JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Read fields, but did not speak automatically. Window Bridge: failed task Comments: none SPW: failed task Comments: none Note: The following questions refer to operations in Excel, Microsoft's spread sheet. 5. Load MS-Excel and, from the file menu, select "open". Using the dialog box, open a file called invoice.xls from the \dwfile directory. (Note: MS-Excel is an example of how Microsoft does not necessarily maintain its programming conventions; this presents an obstacle for GUI speech developers.) WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: failed task Comments: Had to re-boot and could not open file. Window-Eyes: n/a Comments: GW Micro declined to demonstrate their program in MS-Excel at this time, but would be working on access to it in the future. JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: failed task Comments: none SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to re-boot. 6. Have the speech announce the cell pointer location. WinVision: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Could not easily speak coordinates. outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Could not easily speak coordinates; used review mode. Window-Eyes: n/a Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: Used INS-C macro. SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: failed task Comments: Could not read because of font type. SPW: achieved task Comments: none 7. Read the text in cells A1 to A6. WinVision: failed task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: n/a Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: failed task Comments: none SPW: achieved task Comments: none 8. Go to cell F22. Enter the 4-digit number provided by the panel; this number is too big for the cell. How does your program let you know this? WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not read cell contents or overflow. outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: Had to read line instead of cell contents and overflow. Window-Eyes: n/a Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: failed task Comments: Could not read overflow. SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: none Note: The next section regards the World Wide Web (WWW) browser, Netscape; IBM used their own WWW access, Web Explorer. 9. Load the web browser; Get the URL of the current sample web site. WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved task Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved task Comments: none SPW: achieved task Comments: none 10. When on-line and going to a new location, many times the new web page takes some time to load. How do you determine when the entire page has been received or downloaded? WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved task Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: SR/2 has a sound feature that indicates if a download is still in progress. Window Bridge: achieved task Comments: none SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: none 11. As you move up and down through the web page, how do you determine when you are at the top or bottom? Demonstrate this by finding the bottom of the current page. WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved task Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty Comments: none SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: none 12. Find and move to the link on the screen. Now, click the "Let the Internet duel begin" link. WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Found link but could not select as the cursor was not on the link. JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty Comments: none SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had trouble distinguishing between hypertext link and standard text. 13. If a link is not visible on the current page, can your program find it on other pages without going to those pages? Note: This question was deemed invalid since sighted users would not be using Windows in this fashion. Though not discussed at the seminar, a link Goto/locator might give blind users an advantage over their sighted colleagues. 14. Perform the following seven-step process to get to a specific page: Click on the netsuite products link; Page down twice; Click on the WebWhacker link; Page down three times; Click on the Windows 3.1 v1.0 link; Page down once; Click on the download link. You are now at a form. Please fill in the last name and first name fields. WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not find entry field. outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: none Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Could not get mouse pointer in edit box for data input. JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved task Comments: none SPW: failed task Comments: Could not get mouse pointer in edit box for data input. 15. When online in a newspaper with multiple columns, read a single column. WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read. outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Was the only program that could read newspaper columns, but with many keystrokes and some column defining. Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read. JFW: failed task Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read. SR/2: failed task Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read. Window Bridge: failed task Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read. SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Could not establish single-column with speech, but could use braille display to differentiate between columns. 16. Start MS-Word. From the file menu open a file called dw.doc from the \dwfiles directory. From the tool menu, select spellcheck. Using the tab key, now demonstrate your program's ability to read the items in this dialog box. WinVision: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell misspelled or optional words. outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell misspelled or optional words. Window-Eyes: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell misspelled or optional words. JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell misspelled or optional words. SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell misspelled or optional words. Summary and Commentary We gleaned a few conclusions from Dueling Windows. It showed that we have come a long way in GUI screen reader development since only a few, short years ago when access to GUI appeared a dismal prospect. Dueling Windows further showed, however, that we have a long way to go in GUI screen reader development. Few tasks, by any vendor, could be easily performed with a single keystroke or short series of keystrokes; though certain individual tasks could be performed relatively easily, access to an entire process or series of tasks seemed burdensome and never completely straight-forward. The seminar brought to light some important points to consider regarding this. DOS was not accessible in its early state, and is often still inaccessible. Access to Windows, however, is occurring at an earlier stage in Windows development than did access in DOS's development. Also, if certain programming conventions are upheld in Windows, Windows may become much more predictable and workable than DOS did; remember that GUI access is in its fledgling state and will become much more sophisticated. One key issue for access to Windows is the need, or lack thereof, to build one's own speech configurations or profiles. If an access program works well with a strict, conventional set-up of an application program, but fails to easily be configured for a slight variation of the original application program, this is obviously not desirable. Also, key issues for GUI screen reader users are the ability to re-read text and fields that have been spoken once as a window opens, and the ability to spell words in any area of the screen where they are only spoken in context. Since Windows is somewhat predictable and generally constant in its presentation, and, since certain Windows application programs have become more conventional than others, it is not unreasonable to assume that the differences between access programs will become more philosophy-based, rather than task-based. The conventions of Windows, or domination of Microsoft, essentially requires all GUI screen readers to eventually have full and complete access to these programs. The distinctions are likely to appear in the interface where more or less transparency is desired, etc. Lastly, Dueling Windows may be providing a marketing aspect that could benefit the users. Though certainly not all-encompassing, it injects a competitiveness into the screen reader market that might not otherwise be there. Much product development for the blind has suffered as a result of a lack of competition, so the user may benefit from this current surge in GUI access competitiveness. The only danger with this added competitiveness is if the small pool of developers and vendors in this market lose respect for another's product, or cease to work with other developers. Judging from the March CSUN event, this is certainly not the case yet, and SAF looks forward to the next Dueling Windows. Post Scriptum: SAF welcomes any or all of the GUI screen reader vendors to respond to any misrepresentations or errors this article may infer regarding their product. -----Original Message----- From: Ian Westerland via Talk Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 3:04 PM To: Sky Mundell via Talk Cc: Ian Westerland Subject: Re: contacting Doug. Hello everyone. I am still using Window-Eyes and the various Android apps in my smart phone but I think the 4 B's might apply here to FS, Jaws and screen reading access generally. What are the 4 B's? Big, Bigger, Biggest, Bust. In the longr term, some good will come of it all depending on who thinks about what is behind the need for top quality Screen reading access. There are some good things around. Just some thoughts I've had as I have observed and participated in some of this Accessibility change and development. Ian Westerland On 8/19/2017 7:24 AM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: > FS is getting desperate to hang onto their market at any cost. With JAWS > having a monopoly in the paid market now, the price of JAWS might go up. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Talk [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Reeva > Webb via Talk > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 11:42 AM > To: Window-Eyes Discussion List > Cc: Reeva Webb > Subject: RE: contacting Doug. > > You can tell fs starting to get desperate. Fs 10 or 15 years ago wouldn't > have given you discounts on anything. For most the out of the box > accessibility, android, apple etc. will work for what they need to do. I'm > curious though, is anyone from gw or pre merger ai2 still around.? > Everyone i can think of seems to be gone. > > "the world has been against you from day one, tomorrow's never promised > night has just begun, so sing with me we're all fucked" Walls Of Jericho > > Reeva > > On Aug 17, 2017 1:00 PM, "Joseph Norton via Talk" < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Ah, I think I see where you’re going with this. >> >> Are you saying things may be getting to a point where the cost of >> maintaining JAWS is greater than anyone wants to pay in terms of >> keeping the company going? >> >> I know it’s not because of Narrator being a superior product on the >> Windows side. It is improving, but, not enough for many of us to get >> rid of JAWS. >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk >> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:02 PM >> To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'; 'Dennis Long' >> Subject: RE: contacting Doug. >> >> Well, Michael, I once opined that the war Freedom Scientific could not >> win in the courts, was well fought and won outside; with its cohorts >> and coterie of friends, it succeeded in drowning the boat! >> >> The merger with AI Square came to me as a surprise; I didn't want to >> see it happen, but what voice do I have? >> >> I long for the day when all these adaptive equipment >> developers/manufacturers can TRADE THEIR STOCKS publicly; may be, just >> may be, they'll have better stability! Now, we keep our eyes on the >> sparrow, Jaws may be taking its last breath as the venture capitalists >> will soon squash its fins! Then it'll be Apple and Google to fill the >> void at least here in the United States! >> >> Sincerely, >> Olusegun >> Denver, Colorado >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/ >> options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/joseph.norton%40gmail.com. >> For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/ >> listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/ private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/ >> options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/jadedangelpromises%40gmail.com. >> For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/ >> listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/ private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/skyt%40shaw.ca. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/iwesterl%40bigpond.net.au. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/russ94577%40gmail.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/loyrg2845%40gmail.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
