Hi Loy!
No, I agree that the article would not be fair today, but I think this
article was posted for historical purposes, not anything about the current day.
Debby
At 10:25 AM 8/19/2017, Loy via Talk wrote
This would not be a air comparison now, Window Eyes progressed much faster
than JAWS since 1996. ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Kiehne
via Talk To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Russ Kiehne Sent:
Saturday, August 19, 2017 9:42 AM Subject: Re: contacting Doug. Check
this out from times past! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:49:26
EDT From: Jamal Mazrui <[email protected]> Subject: CSUN
"Dueling Windows" Sensory Access Foundation has published a "Dueling
Windows" report in the Spring 1996 issue of Access
Review. It summarizes a competition among Windows screen readers that
was held at the 1996 CSUN conference in March. I am prefacing
the article with some tabulations I did with its data. Since the
article does not quantify the performance of each screen reader
according to its criteria, I did such an analysis for the interest of
readers. I assigned a value of 2 for accomplishing a task, 1 for
accomplishing it with difficulty, and 0 for failing it. If anyone
observes an error in my arithmetic, please let me know. Artic's
WinVision accomplished: 7 accomplished with difficulty: 2 failed:
6 total points: 16 average: 1.06 Berkeley's OutSpoken for
Windows accomplished: 9 accomplished with difficulty: 5 failed:
1 total points: 23 average: 1.53 GW Micro's
Window-Eyes accomplished: 5 accomplished with difficulty: 1 failed:
9 total points: 11 average: .73 Henter-Joyce's JAWS for
Windows accomplished: 13 accomplished with difficulty: 1 failed:
1 total points: 27 average: 1.8 IBM's Screen
Reader/2 accomplished: 13 accomplished with difficulty: 1 failed:
1 total points: 27 average: 1.8 Syntha-Voice's Window
Bridge accomplished: 5 accomplished with difficulty: 4 failed:
6 total points: 14 average: .93 TeleSensory's Screen Power for
Windows accomplished: 5 accomplished with difficulty: 7 failed:
3 total points: 17 average: 1.13 Based solely on this analysis, JAWS
for Windows and Screen Reader/2 were tied for top. They were followed
by OutSpoken for Windows, Screen Power for Windows, WinVision, Window
Bridge and Window-Eyes. Let me remind readers that Windows access
products are rapidly developing so that new versions might lead to
significantly different results today. In fact, some developers have
already made enhancements to address problems encountered at
this competition. ---------- Dueling Windows: An
Overview by Kenneth Frasse (re-printed with permission of
Sensory Access Foundation from Access Review, Vol. I, No. 1, Spring
1996) Abstract In March, at the CSUN International Conference on
Technology and Persons with Disabilities held in Los Angeles,
California, Mark Nelson of the Foundation for Blind Children hosted a
pre-conference seminar called "Dueling Windows". This seminar attempted
to contrast and compare graphical user interface (GUI) screen
review software in applications for Windows. The format of the
seminar was to pose identical tasks to each of the vendors in
alternating order and have the vendors demonstrate the ability of
their products to perform the specified tasks. Since SAF does not
sell, distribute, or endorse any single GUI screen reader, we
attempted to generate an objective review of the GUI screen
readers demonstrated. Editor Similar to the 1995 Closing the
Gap presentation of Dueling Windows, Mark Nelson of the Arizona-based
Foundation for Blind Children coordinated another Dueling Windows at the
March CSUN conference in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles seminar differed
in several respects from the first seminar at Closing the Gap, not
the least of which was that the seminar was six hours long. It
was similar to the Closing the Gap seminar in that it was composed
of questions and tasks that each of the vendors had to answer
or perform. Notably, Greg Meise of the Kansas-based Missing
Link Technologies, Kerry Malone-Cook of the Southern Oregon
Goodwill, and Jay Stiteley of The New Jersey-based Seeing Eye, Inc.
joined Mr. Nelson as the three panelists who would present the
questions of the day; these panelists also formed the impetus for
creating Dueling Windows. I wish to take a moment to explain
the presentation and approach of this article so that the reader may
be as clear on the issues presented as possible. I will
present Dueling Windows in five sections: 1) Who was there: Which
GUI software were represented at the seminar and what are some of the
fundamental equipment differences between them that the seminar results
might not make obvious for the reader; 2) Technical Set-up: What
was the technical set-up for the seminar; 3) Environment: What are
the advantages and disadvantages of the Dueling Windows
environment; 4) Results: The Dueling Windows results; 5) Summary
and commentary. Who was there Seven GUI screen reader developers were
represented at the seminar. These included: 1) Artic Technologies's
WinVision 2 v2.16; 2) Berkeley Access's outSPOKEN for Windows v1.2
(vb26 public beta) 3) GW Micro's Window-Eyes
v1.03; 4) Henter-Joyce's JAWS for Windows (JFW) v1.2; 5) IBM's
Screen Reader/2 (SR/2) v2.0; 6) Syntha-Voice's SLIMWARE Window Bridge
v2.21; 7) TeleSensory's ScreenPower for Windows (SPW) v1.47B. Nearly
all GUI screen readers were represented by their
respective owners/developers/staff except for WinVision which was
represented by one of their California authorized dealers, Paul
Hendrikson. Window Bridge also opted to have a student user demonstrate
the latter portion of the seminar in lieu of Niel Cooper
who demonstrated the first segment. The other participants were
Josh Miele of Berkeley Access, Mike Lawler of GW Micro, Ted Henter
and Glen Gordon of Henter-Joyce, Inc., Guido Corona of IBM, and
Scott Duncan of TeleSensory, Inc. Several of the GUI screen readers
claim to possess electronic braille display support, but TeleSensory was
the only vendor who brought and used their own PowerBraille 40-cell
display; unfortunately, the airlines misplaced TeleSensory's PB-40, and
Mr. Duncan was unable to demonstrate the braille display ability
until later in the afternoon. (TeleSensory claims that one of
the strengths of ScreenPower for Windows is its braille
display support. SAF will soon be testing and comparing braille
display support, and the results will be published in ACCESS
REVIEW. Technical Set-up The seminar was performed on 7 identical
Pentium computers with 16 megabytes of RAM; these machines were
generously donated by IBM. Each of the computers had a 17-inch monitor
that was turned 180 degrees away from the participant and facing the
audience so that the audience could review where the participant was in
their manipulations. Additionally, a large overhead screen displayed
to the audience the monitor of the individual vendor who
was performing tasks; vendors were not allowed to visually review
the monitor. All audible feed from the computers was sent to
DECtalk voice synthesizers which were in turn fed into the main PA of
the room. Each vendor installed their own GUI screen reader and
peripherals associated with their software. Aside from TeleSensory's
eventual use of the PB-40, IBM's Screen Reader/2 used an external
keypad from which all operations were performed. Mr. Corona did have
one piece of software that differed from the other vendors; IBM
uses their own Web Explorer for Internet access while the other
GUI screen readers use Netscape for their access to the
Internet. Since real-time access to the Internet posed a tactical
impasse, the vendors had to download prepared pages from their own
hard drives; it was assumed that this would mostly resemble
real-time operation on the Internet. Lastly, the seminar was split
into two three-hour sessions with an emphasis on spread sheets in the
morning, and an emphasis on Netscape and word processing in the
afternoon. The applications used included Microsoft Access, Microsoft
Excel, Netscape (Web Explorer for IBM), and Microsoft
Word. Environment It is important to understand the context and
limitations of the Dueling Windows environment with respect to GUI
screen readers. In so doing, the reader can better establish where more
inquiry may be appropriate, as well as where, and when, GUI screen
readers can directly address the user's needs. Generally speaking, the
fifteen questions from the Dueling Windows panel posed common, direct
tasks for the vendors to perform. The reader can determine the general
state of GUI affairs through the entire seminar, but there are several
cases in which the reader cannot determine the cause of a certain
result. In several cases, vendors' systems crashed, and they were
obligated to re-boot their systems; in some cases, it was not possible
to determine exactly what the cause of the crash was. It is important
to acknowledge that there are numerous ways to program in Windows for a
desired result, and, consequently, there are inherent problems with the
way Windows applications have been programmed. Since it is
SAF's belief that most beginner users do not know how to configure
the speech parameters or profiles for various Windows environments,
it was also difficult to determine whether a GUI screen reader
could not access something on the screen, or whether this problem
could have been solved by altering the speech configuration; in
short, there are minor and major obstacles, and Dueling Windows could
not afford the vendors the time to really address this other than
to allow them to verbally state whether they could, or could
not, perform a task. Naturally, the ease with which a user can
access their application or configure their speech software is
important, even critical, but this detail could not be discussed because
of time constraints as well. Though the general approach and
philosophy of each vendor became increasingly apparent as the seminar
passed, the more subtle distinctions of each vendor's approach could not
be related through the Dueling Windows context. None of this is to say
that the seminar should, or could, have been planned differently. It
is simply necessary to understand that any competitive context for
any product is sometimes misleading in only reviewing the
statistical results. The seminar was well-planned, well-organized,
and extremely thoughtful and reasonable in its approach and
inquiry. Results The following results are displayed in a similar
fashion as did the Dueling Windows panel. There were three categories
of scoring; the vendor either achieved the task, achieved the task with
difficulty, or failed to perform the task. For the purpose of our
review of the seven vendors, "achieved task" means that the vendor was
able to achieve the task with good efficacy and few
keystrokes; "achieved task with difficulty" means that the vendor had to
try repeatedly, the task required an inordinate number of keystrokes
or searching, or multiple modes or cursors were required to achieve
a task that was simpler in design than performing it; "failed
task" simply means that the task was not accomplished. The panel
rotated through the vendors so that no single vendor could always have
the benefit of his predecessor's insight; the results here shall be by
vendor in alphabetical order and will include additional comment for
clarification. A comment "none" can mean just that, or it can mean that
there was insufficient data to determine the cause of the outcome. It
should be noted that this article is not to promote any single vendor,
so it will concentrate its comments on GUI screen reader's ability
rather than their failure. (More comment on the evolution of GUI screen
readers will be presented in the Summary section of this article.) Each
of the fifteen questions shall be presented, and followed with
each vendor's performance. Note: The first 4 questions regard
Microsoft Access, MS's database. 1. Find and launch Microsoft
Access. WinVision: achieved
task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved
task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved
task Comments: none JFW: achieved task Comments: none Screen
Reader/2: achieved task Comments: none Window Bridge: achieved
task Comments: none SPW: achieved
task Comments: none 2. Using the file menu and dialog box, open the
file called dwdb from the \dwfiles directory. WinVision: achieved
task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved
task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved
task Comments: none JFW: achieved
task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window
Bridge: achieved task Comments: none SPW: achieved
task Comments: none 3. Open the employee table in view, arrow down
and tab into the employee data, and demonstrate how to read the field
data and field title. WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not
read either cell contents or header. outSPOKEN: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Had to invoke mouse cursor to read
header. Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Could not read either
cell contents or header; very verbose. JFW: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Read cell contents but had to enter mouse cursor
mode and search to read header. SR/2: achieved
task Comments: Screen Reader/2 was the only program that could read
the field and header without entering into an additional mode or
review mode, or having to press numerous keystrokes just to confirm
the header. Window Bridge: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Had to re-boot. SPW: failed
task Comments: none 4. Close the employee table window (CTRL+F4),
and from the View menu select Query (Alt+V, Q). Now select the DWquery,
and in two separate dialog boxes you will be prompted to enter data
. In the first you will be asked to enter a position. In the second
you will be asked to enter a country. Demonstrate your
program's ability to find and read the appropriate prompts. (Editor's
note: the prompt here is located on the line above the entry
field.) WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not re-read edit
fields. outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Could
read dialogue box, but did not speak automatically and needed to enter
mouse cursor mode to re-read the field. Window-Eyes: failed
task Comments: Very verbose; could not re-read edit
field. JFW: achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Read fields, but did not speak
automatically. Window Bridge: failed
task Comments: none SPW: failed task Comments: none Note: The
following questions refer to operations in Excel, Microsoft's spread
sheet. 5. Load MS-Excel and, from the file menu, select
"open". Using the dialog box, open a file called invoice.xls from the
\dwfile directory. (Note: MS-Excel is an example of how Microsoft
does not necessarily maintain its programming conventions; this
presents an obstacle for GUI speech developers.) WinVision: achieved
task Comments: none outSPOKEN: failed task Comments: Had to
re-boot and could not open file. Window-Eyes: n/a Comments: GW Micro
declined to demonstrate their program in MS-Excel at this time, but
would be working on access to it in the future. JFW: achieved
task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window
Bridge: failed task Comments: none SPW: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Had to re-boot. 6. Have the speech announce
the cell pointer location. WinVision: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Could not easily speak
coordinates. outSPOKEN: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Could not easily speak coordinates; used review
mode. Window-Eyes: n/a Comments: none JFW: achieved
task Comments: Used INS-C macro. SR/2: achieved
task Comments: none Window Bridge: failed task Comments: Could
not read because of font type. SPW: achieved
task Comments: none 7. Read the text in cells A1 to
A6. WinVision: failed task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved
task Comments: none Window-Eyes: n/a Comments: none JFW:
achieved task Comments: none SR/2: achieved
task Comments: none Window Bridge: failed
task Comments: none SPW: achieved task Comments: none 8. Go
to cell F22. Enter the 4-digit number provided by the panel; this
number is too big for the cell. How does your program let you know
this? WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not read cell contents
or overflow. outSPOKEN: achieved task Comments: Had to read line
instead of cell contents and
overflow. Window-Eyes: n/a Comments: none JFW: achieved
task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window
Bridge: failed task Comments: Could not read
overflow. SPW: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: none Note: The next section regards the World
Wide Web (WWW) browser, Netscape; IBM used their own WWW access, Web
Explorer. 9. Load the web browser; Get the URL of the current sample
web site. WinVision: achieved
task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved
task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved
task Comments: none JFW: achieved
task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window
Bridge: achieved task Comments: none SPW: achieved
task Comments: none 10. When on-line and going to a new location,
many times the new web page takes some time to load. How do you
determine when the entire page has been received or
downloaded? WinVision: achieved
task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved
task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved
task Comments: none JFW: achieved
task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: SR/2 has a
sound feature that indicates if a download is still in
progress. Window Bridge: achieved
task Comments: none SPW: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: none 11. As you move up and down through the
web page, how do you determine when you are at the top or
bottom? Demonstrate this by finding the bottom of the current
page. WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved
task Comments: none Window-Eyes: achieved
task Comments: none JFW: achieved
task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window
Bridge: achieved task with difficulty Comments: none SPW: achieved
task with difficulty Comments: none 12. Find and move to the link on
the screen. Now, click the "Let the Internet duel begin"
link. WinVision: achieved task Comments: none outSPOKEN: achieved
task Comments: none Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Found link
but could not select as the cursor was not on the link. JFW: achieved
task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window
Bridge: achieved task with difficulty Comments: none SPW: achieved
task with difficulty Comments: Had trouble distinguishing between
hypertext link and standard text. 13. If a link is not visible on the
current page, can your program find it on other pages without going to
those pages? Note: This question was deemed invalid since sighted users
would not be using Windows in this fashion. Though not discussed at
the seminar, a link Goto/locator might give blind users an
advantage over their sighted colleagues. 14. Perform the following
seven-step process to get to a specific page: Click on the netsuite
products link; Page down twice; Click on the WebWhacker link; Page
down three times; Click on the Windows 3.1 v1.0 link; Page down
once; Click on the download link. You are now at a form. Please fill
in the last name and first name fields. WinVision: failed
task Comments: Could not find entry field. outSPOKEN: achieved
task Comments: none Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Could not
get mouse pointer in edit box for data input. JFW: achieved
task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window
Bridge: achieved task Comments: none SPW: failed
task Comments: Could not get mouse pointer in edit box for data
input. 15. When online in a newspaper with multiple columns, read
a single column. WinVision: failed task Comments: Could not
establish single-column window to read. outSPOKEN: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Was the only program that could read newspaper
columns, but with many keystrokes and some column
defining. Window-Eyes: failed task Comments: Could not establish
single-column window to read. JFW: failed task Comments: Could not
establish single-column window to read. SR/2: failed
task Comments: Could not establish single-column window to
read. Window Bridge: failed task Comments: Could not establish
single-column window to read. SPW: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Could not establish single-column with speech, but
could use braille display to differentiate between
columns. 16. Start MS-Word. From the file menu open a file called
dw.doc from the \dwfiles directory. From the tool menu,
select spellcheck. Using the tab key, now demonstrate your
program's ability to read the items in this dialog
box. WinVision: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab
to short keys to read them; did not spell misspelled or
optional words. outSPOKEN: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not
spell misspelled or optional words. Window-Eyes: achieved task with
difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not
spell misspelled or optional words. JFW: achieved
task Comments: none SR/2: achieved task Comments: none Window
Bridge: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had to tab to short
keys to read them; did not spell misspelled or
optional words. SPW: achieved task with difficulty Comments: Had
to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell misspelled or
optional words. Summary and Commentary We gleaned a few conclusions
from Dueling Windows. It showed that we have come a long way in GUI
screen reader development since only a few, short years ago when access
to GUI appeared a dismal prospect. Dueling Windows further showed,
however, that we have a long way to go in GUI screen reader
development. Few tasks, by any vendor, could be easily performed with a
single keystroke or short series of keystrokes; though certain
individual tasks could be performed relatively easily, access to an
entire process or series of tasks seemed burdensome and never completely
straight-forward. The seminar brought to light some important points to
consider regarding this. DOS was not accessible in its early state,
and is often still inaccessible. Access to Windows, however, is
occurring at an earlier stage in Windows development than did access in
DOS's development. Also, if certain programming conventions are
upheld in Windows, Windows may become much more predictable and
workable than DOS did; remember that GUI access is in its fledgling
state and will become much more sophisticated. One key issue for
access to Windows is the need, or lack thereof, to build one's own
speech configurations or profiles. If an access program works well
with a strict, conventional set-up of an application program, but
fails to easily be configured for a slight variation of the
original application program, this is obviously not desirable. Also,
key issues for GUI screen reader users are the ability to re-read
text and fields that have been spoken once as a window opens, and
the ability to spell words in any area of the screen where they
are only spoken in context. Since Windows is somewhat predictable and
generally constant in its presentation, and, since certain Windows
application programs have become more conventional than others, it is
not unreasonable to assume that the differences between access programs
will become more philosophy-based, rather than task-based. The
conventions of Windows, or domination of Microsoft, essentially requires
all GUI screen readers to eventually have full and complete access to
these programs. The distinctions are likely to appear in the
interface where more or less transparency is desired, etc. Lastly,
Dueling Windows may be providing a marketing aspect that could benefit
the users. Though certainly not all-encompassing, it injects a
competitiveness into the screen reader market that might not otherwise
be there. Much product development for the blind has suffered as a
result of a lack of competition, so the user may benefit from this
current surge in GUI access competitiveness. The only danger with this
added competitiveness is if the small pool of developers and vendors in
this market lose respect for another's product, or cease to work with
other developers. Judging from the March CSUN event, this is certainly
not the case yet, and SAF looks forward to the next Dueling
Windows. Post Scriptum: SAF welcomes any or all of the GUI screen
reader vendors to respond to any misrepresentations or errors this
article may infer regarding their product. -----Original
Message----- From: Ian Westerland via Talk Sent: Friday, August 18,
2017 3:04 PM To: Sky Mundell via Talk Cc: Ian Westerland Subject:
Re: contacting Doug. Hello everyone. I am still using Window-Eyes and
the various Android apps in my smart phone but I think the 4 B's might
apply here to FS, Jaws and screen reading access generally. What are
the 4 B's? Big, Bigger, Biggest, Bust. In the longr term, some good
will come of it all depending on who thinks about what is behind the
need for top quality Screen reading access. There are some good things
around. Just some thoughts I've had as I have observed and participated
in some of this Accessibility change and development. Ian
Westerland On 8/19/2017 7:24 AM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: > FS is
getting desperate to hang onto their market at any cost. With JAWS >
having a monopoly in the paid market now, the price of JAWS might go
up. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Talk
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Reeva > Webb
via Talk > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 11:42 AM > To: Window-Eyes
Discussion List > Cc: Reeva Webb > Subject: RE: contacting
Doug. > > You can tell fs starting to get desperate. Fs 10 or 15 years
ago wouldn't > have given you discounts on anything. For most the out of
the box > accessibility, android, apple etc. will work for what they
need to do. I'm > curious though, is anyone from gw or pre merger ai2
still around.? > Everyone i can think of seems to be gone. > > "the
world has been against you from day one, tomorrow's never promised >
night has just begun, so sing with me we're all fucked" Walls Of
Jericho > > Reeva > > On Aug 17, 2017 1:00 PM, "Joseph Norton via
Talk" < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Ah, I think I see
where youâre going with this. >> >> Are you saying things may be
getting to a point where the cost of >> maintaining JAWS is greater than
anyone wants to pay in terms of >> keeping the company going? >> >>
I know itâs not because of Narrator being a superior product on the >>
Windows side. It is improving, but, not enough for many of us to get >>
rid of JAWS. >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >>
From: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk >> Sent:
Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:02 PM >> To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List';
'Dennis Long' >> Subject: RE: contacting Doug. >> >> Well, Michael,
I once opined that the war Freedom Scientific could not >> win in the
courts, was well fought and won outside; with its cohorts >> and coterie
of friends, it succeeded in drowning the boat! >> >> The merger with
AI Square came to me as a surprise; I didn't want to >> see it happen,
but what voice do I have? >> >> I long for the day when all these
adaptive equipment >> developers/manufacturers can TRADE THEIR STOCKS
publicly; may be, just >> may be, they'll have better stability! Now,
we keep our eyes on the >> sparrow, Jaws may be taking its last breath
as the venture capitalists >> will soon squash its fins! Then it'll be
Apple and Google to fill the >> void at least here in the United
States! >> >> Sincerely, >> Olusegun >> Denver,
Colorado >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses
by Avast antivirus software. >>
https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >>
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