Hi, On 10/23/2017 05:06 PM, Ian Dees wrote: > On Oct 23, 2017 08:59, "Mikel Maron" <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > However ... I hope we can also agree that it is counter productive > to start off such discussions in such an argumentative pose. I hear > a lot of distrust in phrases like "misrepresentation", "claiming > ownership", "exactly what HOT doesn't do". It's emotionally draining > for me to read things like this, and I don't think I'm alone. There > is always more we can learn from each other, about what to do and > how to do it. We are all here in OpenStreetMap because we love the > map. Can we please use that as a starting point in our interactions, > and focus on helping each other to make the map together? > > > Yes, thanks for bringing this up Mikel. Combative questions and the > assumption that the other party is trying to attack OSM makes threads > like this extremely difficult to participate in. People interested in > having a conversation about OSM avoid the mailing lists because of > threads like this and it hurts our community.
I find it tiring to read these "see that's why nobody does mailing lists any more" tirades, and it is very difficult for me to separate criticism of the style in which something is written, from criticism of the actual message. I feel that there's too much language policing going on, and too little respect for cultural diversity. Christoph is, like me, from Europe, and those of you who are quick to cast him (or "threads like this") off as harmful to the community, seem to be from the USA. Is it possible that we simply have different ways to express things? Can civil conversations about OSM only be had by US citizens and those who swallow their values, and everyone else is a problem? Or do we have the same set of values but somehow this project manages to attract the more polite among the North Americans, and the ill-bred of the Europeans? Now let's try to be constructive about this and see how we can make it better. Ian and Mikel; try for a second to put yourself in Christophs's shoes. Assume you're a member of the OSM community, and you come across a web site by a third party that you know but are not involved in, let's say a web site by a charity called "Reporters without Borders". Say you open their web page and are greeted with a banner that says "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" and a button "Start Mapping", and a series of Reporters without Borders projects that you can participate in. They talk about how they partner with other organisations or people on the ground but don't mention the fact that OpenStreetMap was about collaborative mapping even before "Reporters without Borders" came along at all. Say that - even though you're normally calm and not easily offended - you're now slightly hurt that here's a charity building something on top of the project that you are spending half of your spare time, and they seem to be making it sound as if it was them who have invented collaborative mapping. Say that - even though your first impulse might be to do more research or ask friends on a private communications platform of your choice about this - you decide to make your fellow OpenStreetMappers aware of this perceived problem, on the mailing list. How would you go about it? What would you write? How would you communicate to your fellow OpenStreetMappers that you feel wronged by this charity, while at the same time not offending or emotionally draining those among your fellow OpenStreetMappers who are involved with that same charity? The reason you want to share this with your peers is that this sharing will reduce your hurt; others will (you hope) either say "yep, you are right to feel offended, they need to change that", or they will say "ah, it's not so bad, everyone does it anyway" which, while perhaps not as satisfying, will also help to settle the matter for you. You cannot be expected to send a quiet email to the makers of the page instead; you have a right to share joy *and* pain with your fellow mappers on the mailing list. That's the very core of social, of community. What would be *your* words to say "Hey everybody, I saw this, and I think it is bad and needs to change"? What choice of language would adequately express your being upset about what you have seen, without being denounced as a poisonous person who harms the community by seeking support from it? This is a honest question; I would really be interested in the, if I may, "American version" of what Christoph has written. One that does express how you're upset while at the same time *not* being "combative" and all those bad things you said about Christoph's post. Maybe then I can use that to express myself in a more internationally compatible way in the future ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [email protected] ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" _______________________________________________ talk mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
