+1 Administrative classification is not strictly related everywhere to signage, structure and access rights.
On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 1:12 PM, djakk djakk <[email protected]> wrote: > I know that « trunk » is country-dependent but why not moving it to a > worldwide definition ? Administrative classification could be moved to other > tags :) > > > djakk > > Le ven. 23 févr. 2018 à 16:06, Matej Lieskovský <[email protected]> > a écrit : >> >> Greetings >> I'd like to caution against using this system globally. In Czechia, roads >> are formally classified into classes, which influence signage, ref numbers >> and so on. Deploying this system here would make the tag confusing/useless >> and would likely face enormous backlash. I have no problems with using this >> system in countries without a clearly defined road classification, but >> please don't touch the countries where there is no doubt about what class >> any given road is. >> Happy mapping! >> >> On 22 February 2018 at 16:20, djakk djakk <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I totally agree with you, the definition you provide, >>> administrative-free, tends to the same osm map between countries. >>> >>> djakk >>> >>> Le jeu. 15 févr. 2018 à 19:18, Fernando Trebien >>> <[email protected]> a écrit : >>>> >>>> Landing on this discussion several months late. I've just heard of it >>>> by reading a wiki talk page [1]. >>>> >>>> Since 13 February 2009, the wiki [2] criticises highway classification >>>> as problematic/unverifiable. This has also been subject to a lot of >>>> controversy (and edit wars) in my local community (Brazil), especially >>>> regarding the effect of (lack of) pavement. >>>> >>>> In trying to achieve greater consensus some years ago, I decided to >>>> seek opinions elsewhere and finally I arrived at this scheme [3] which >>>> I think is very useful, if not perfect yet. It can be easily >>>> summarised like this: >>>> - trunk: best routes between large/important cities >>>> - primary: best routes between cities and above >>>> - secondary: best routes between towns/suburbs and above >>>> - tertiary: best routes between villages/neighbourhoods and above >>>> - unclassified: best routes between other place=* and above >>>> >>>> For example, the best route between two villages would be at least >>>> tertiary. So would be the best route between a village and a town or a >>>> city. Parts of this route might have a higher class in case they are >>>> part of a route between more important places. >>>> >>>> It surely raises the problem of determining optimal routes. Maybe a >>>> sensible criterion would be average travel time without traffic >>>> congestion. A number of vehicles may be selected for this average - >>>> could be motorcycle+car+bus+truck, or simply car+truck. >>>> >>>> Early results in my area [4, in Portuguese] seem promising and have >>>> produced more consensus than any previous proposals. To me, this >>>> method seems to: >>>> - resist alternations in classification along the same road >>>> - work across borders (where classification discontinuities are >>>> expected because each country is using different classification >>>> criteria) >>>> - account for road network topology >>>> - work in countries with mostly precarious/unpaved roads or >>>> without/unknown official highway classes >>>> - work between settlements as well as within settlements >>>> >>>> Borderline cases are probably inescapable in any system that does not >>>> use solely criteria that are directly verifiable - from the ground, or >>>> from the law. Maybe, in certain developed countries, the system is so >>>> well organized that merely checking signs/laws is sufficient. That >>>> does not mean it is like that everywhere on the planet. >>>> >>>> OSM has so far received a lot of input from communities in developed >>>> countries (mostly Europe, North America and Australia) and hasn't >>>> given much attention to less developed/organized countries. What comes >>>> closest to this is what the HOT Team does, but the judgment of road >>>> classification one can do from satellite images in a foreign country >>>> is much more limited than the criteria that have been raised in this >>>> thread so far. >>>> >>>> I wouldn't endorse tags such as maxspeed:practical due to lack of >>>> verifiability (it should be obvious that different types of vehicles >>>> would achieve different practical speeds). It is better to use the >>>> legal speed in maxspeed=* and describe the practical reason for a >>>> lower speed using surface=*, smoothness=*, and, who knows, maybe the >>>> not yet approved hazard=* [5] (though that is intended for signed >>>> hazards, not subjective/opinionated hazards). >>>> >>>> For the sake of long-term sanity, I also wouldn't mix the purpose of >>>> one tag with the purpose of other tags. To describe the surface, there >>>> is surface=*, smoothness=* and tracktype=*. To describe access rights, >>>> there is access=*, foot=*, bicycle=*, motor_vehicle=*, etc. To >>>> describe legal speed, maxspeed=*. To describe curves, there's >>>> geometry. >>>> >>>> Purpose, perhaps, is the main issue. What is the purpose of highway >>>> classification? Is it to save us the work of adding extra tags? Is it >>>> to allow the renderer to produce a cleaner output at low zoom levels? >>>> Is it to allow routers to assume default speeds? Maybe to guide their >>>> routing heuristics? Is it to express some sort of importance? If so, >>>> by which perspective - urbanistic, traffic engineering, movement, >>>> commercial value, cultural/fame, historic, some combination of those? >>>> Should the purpose be the same in every country? >>>> >>>> It may be interesting to also discuss the classification adopted by >>>> other maps. I don't have a reference for Google (originally TeleAtlas) >>>> or Here.com (originally Navteq), but Waze publishes its per-country >>>> road classification criteria in its wiki. [6-16] >>>> >>>> [1] >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Dtrunk#change_.22high_performance.22_to_.22high_importance.22 >>>> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability#Problematic_tags >>>> [3] >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ftrebien/Drafts/Generic_highway_classification_principles#Schematic_diagram_and_general_comments >>>> [4] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=674296#p674296 >>>> [5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard >>>> [6] https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/USA/Road_types >>>> [7] https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/UnitedKingdom/Roads#Road_types >>>> [8] https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/Canada/Main_Page#Road_Types >>>> [9] https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/Commons/Road_Types/India >>>> [10] >>>> https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/Brazil/Como_categorizar_e_nomear_vias >>>> [11] >>>> https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/Germany/Kartenlegende_(Deutschland) >>>> [12] https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/France/Classification_France >>>> [13] https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/Italy/Tipologia_delle_strade >>>> [14] https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/Indonesia/Panduan_Tipe_Jalan >>>> [15] https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/%E9%81%93%E8%B7%AF%E7%B1%BB%E5%9E%8B >>>> [16] >>>> https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/%E3%80%8C%E9%81%93%E8%B7%AF%E7%A8%AE%E5%88%A5%E3%80%8D >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Fernando Trebien >>>> +55 (51) 99962-5409 >>>> >>>> "Nullius in verba." >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> talk mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 "Nullius in verba." _______________________________________________ talk mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
