Every caver in Texas and most high school students know that inhaling really
high carbon dioxide levels are not good for you.
But carbon dioxide is not some evil gas, it's naturally produced in your body
as part of oxidation of organic compounds you consume. The problems arise when
you can't get rid of it and that starts to interfere with your biochemical
reactions by acidifying your system. Thankfully it is carbon dioxide level that
we are physiologically sensing - hence you will feel worse than horrible before
your physiology is in danger.
Rafal Kedzierski
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 11:04:56 -0400
From: wdwal...@windstream.net
To: rafal...@hotmail.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
Rafal,
To much carbon dioxide will kill. A friend and I were surveying a
cave that floods drastically years ago. As we surveyed I began to
develop a headache and to feel nauseous. Finally my carbide light
began to misbehave, so for some reason, I climbed up higher to
change carbide. The lamp flame steadied some. I looked down at my
survey partner I noticed that he was just fumbling with his lamp.
At this point I realized what was wrong - high carbon dioxide
content. I yelled at him to climb up to my level. He did. After he
changed carbide, we left. Once out of the cave the headache and
nausea went away. I never did complete the survey and never did go
back to that cave.
The CO2 was probably from the huge piles of rotting
leaves throughout the cave.
CO2 levels:
OSHA safe level - 0.5%
Max. short term exposure limit (OSHA) - 1.5%
Start to get a headache - 2%
Breathing twice normal rate - 3%
Bill Walden
NSS 11573
On 07/27/2012 10:32 PM, rafal kedzierski wrote:
Carbon dioxide? It's not that bad for you, it's in carbonated
drinks, air we exhale, it's even occasionally found in caves. In
fact as long as you electron transport chain gives electrons to
acceptor like oxygen as you make carbon dioxide, you can kick it
and call yourself alive.
Rafal Kedzierski
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 21:24:03 -0500
From: skese...@gmail.com
To: power_lou...@hotmail.com
CC: nmca...@comcast.net; gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org;
bmixon...@austin.rr.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
I don't know what happened CC but I've worked construction
all my adult life ,I couldn't count the times our work
envirment became compromised because of toxic fumes, just
like high co2 levels you're no wimp for haulin A out of there
and even getting checked out.My pop was chem engineer for Dow
, he told me in his latter years that stuff is bad for you.
On Wednesday, July 25, 2012, Louise Power wrote:
My personal experience has been that folks who
don't work in industry or in a government agency
which has a hazmat specialist on board have
never heard of an MSDS. Wouldn't know what it
meant if they had one. At BLM, we're required to
take hazmat training once/year. It's especially
critical here in Oregon and other states where
meth labs and dumps are so prominent on public
lands.
:-( Louise
There is an almost sure prevention
for this form of stupidity. It is
called the M.S.D.S., the Material
Safety Data Sheet. I is supposed to be
read BEFORE you open the container or
apply the stuff!
E ^v^
From: Louise Power
Sent: Wednesday, July
25, 2012 11:24 AM
To: Geary Schindel
; Bill Mixon
; Texas Cavers
Subject: RE:
[Texascavers] fumes in CC
visitor center
Wait!!! You mean I
sent them all my canaries for
nothing?! After all, Gary, it's
really not a mine anymore.
> From: gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
> To: bmixon...@austin.rr.com;
texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012
10:20:57 -0500
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers]
fumes in CC visitor center
>
> Folks,
>
> I agree with Bill, when using
solvent based paints (or for that
matter, any hazards material) in a
confined space, it is much
quicker, easier and cheaper to use
humans to determine if you've
exceeded any health related
chemical thresholds verses real
time air monitoring or canaries.
Most of the time, most folks
become violently ill before they
actually die. While this is not
the recommended method by the
American Council of Governmental
Industrial Hygienists, it seems to
be the technique most often used
by industry. When employees get
sick, it is probably time to give
them at least a 15 minute break.
You don't have to worry about long
term exposures such as an
increased risk of lung or blood
cancers as those folks probably
won't be working for you in 20
years anyway so not your problem.
>
> Matter of fact, with
substances such as asbestos or
silica dust, by allowing humans in
a contaminated work area without
respirators, they actually help
clean the air as the lungs retain
some of the asbestos fibers or
silica (good for the room, bad for
the lungs). If you would like to
see an excellent presentation on
silicoses and the Hawks Nest
Tunnel in West Virginia and the
largest industrial accident in US
History, you may want to visit
Helen Lang's web page
http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol484/HN-shorter.pdf
>
> I'm sure that the contractor
read and followed all of the
warning labels and safety
precautions for use of the product
and that it was really safe for
use in a confined environment and
that the manufacturers warning
about using the product only in
well ventilated areas was just to
protect them from lawsuits.
>
> Using canaries for air
monitoring has fallen out of favor
in recent years as they are cute
and folks get attached to them. In
addition, there are a number of
powerful animal rights groups that
help protect their interests
(wonder how that would work for
humans). The correct method would
be to develop a health and safety
plan that would require proper
environmental controls such as
ventilation, selecting appropriate
chemicals, using protective
equipment, closing down the
facility, and air monitoring.
However, that all costs time and
money.
>
> G
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mixon Bill
[mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25,
2012 9:40 AM
> To: Cavers Texas
> Subject: [Texascavers] fumes
in CC visitor center
>
> The fact that a few staff
"had to" be taken to hospital does
not prove that there was any real
danger or there were any real inju
