Sirs, You have read I think many books and must have developed your own independent perceptions.Please write now how you perceive,let us not be bonded to the books only.Personally,I now sit under a tree or some nature and try to smell and feel with my mind blank.Every morning I get some topic,about which I had no notion.Persons like you,if you free yourself from the fetters of books and just feel nature,can give really great glimpses. YM
On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 4:11 AM Sithamalli Balasubramanian < [email protected]> wrote: > Q: is purely written by JOHN HORGAN IN 1997 INTERVIEW EXTRACTED FROM HIS > BOOK WHERE THE SCIENCE IS DEAD WAS PRONOUNCED AS EARLY AS 1966 > Reply: Honestly I was not aware of any such thing. I was writing from > personal experience. I am happy that others too held such opinions. > > On Sun, 21 Feb 2021 at 11:22, Rajaram Krishnamurthy <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Pranam >> Sir SKBji-all that you wrote as quote is purely written by JOHN >> HORGAN IN 1997 INTERVIEW EXTRACTED FROM HIS BOOK WHERE THE SCIENCE IS DEAD >> WAS PRONOUNCED AS EARLY AS 1966. I did not express anything except the 1st >> 2 paras. KR IRS 2`1221 >> >> On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 at 21:50, Sithamalli Balasubramanian < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> 1. Quote: "Many modern scientists hope that advances in computers and >>> mathematics will enable them to transcend their current knowledge and >>> create a powerful new science". >>> Reply: There is a lot of delusion. The view given by you was that of >>> P.A.M Dirac. I often cite the failure of Nazis to produce the atom bomb as >>> an example of this delusion. The Nazi program was headed by Werner >>> Heisenberg who was a shade worse than Dirac. He was about to be expelled by >>> his HOD Staudinger for his contempt of empiricism. Mathematics is mainly >>> responsible for this. >>> 2. Quote: "*Darwinian theory does not provide very deep insights into* human >>> nature" >>> Reply: I think Mahabharata does it effectively. All aspects of Human >>> nature find examples in that epic. >>> Darwinisam is not relevant to the human condition. >>> 3. Quote: prove it is false >>> Reply: Your interaction is enviable. Kopper did not have a theory of >>> Science. He was only an analyst. A theory is proposed to explain a number >>> of observations, but does not cover all. A theory should also provide for >>> it to be shown false. It should survive such efforts. >>> This is a running argument I am having with specialists. A few days back >>> one such person asked me if I believed in Peer review process. His argument >>> was,"How would I know if the views are correct." I told him definitions and >>> standards may be appealing but they are also limiting. Peer review should >>> not be practiced as peer veto. There should be an allowance for dissent. >>> This is also the essence of Pepper's idea. >>> Good luck to you, >>> Skb. >>> James Cushing wrote to me from his death-bed that he was only a >>> historian of science.That was a case of both dedication and humility. He >>> died a few days later. Still he found time to reply. >>> Skb. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 at 09:36, Rajaram Krishnamurthy < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Pranam >>>> 1 The impact of a heart vailing for nature coming out of the >>>> bottom of the heart. I thought of releasing this under the Sri SKB YM >>>> combination on science articles of yesterday about why science is dead. >>>> However it fits in here too so in continuation of Sri YM and Sri SKB where >>>> we left it in the past, the present and the future. >>>> 2 INTELLECTUAL DOWN FALL, EDUCATION AND THE SCIENCE IS DEAD: >>>> >>>> Sri SKB’s aspects: >>>> >>>> 1 In fact, I have a feeling that India's intellectual downfall >>>> started with Shankara and his philosophy of Maya which denied existential >>>> reality. >>>> >>>> 2 Following Shakespeare I would say, "Education thou art thine own >>>> enemy". >>>> >>>> 3 The US science education is most impressive. But it is also >>>> illusory. In Chemistry all fundamental work was done before WW-II in >>>> Europe. The post-war US was flush with money whilst other European nations >>>> were poorer. The result was flashy synthetic work which meant nothing >>>> fundamental. Chemistry 'ended' 30 years later. Physics endured a little >>>> longer because of NASA and missiles. Electronics have a field day now. >>>> Again they are harvesting what was found in the early 1900s. >>>> >>>> All science research will become a commodities market in another fifty >>>> years. Science is nearing its end. With that also will end >>>> institutionalized 'knowledge'. >>>> >>>> 4 we differ in our perspective. >>>> >>>> Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> >>>> 1 The views expressed by Sri SKBji is not absolutely different >>>> perspective from mine; even though a Physicist by curriculum, while I hold >>>> the respect to SCIENCE, I should demarcate the respect by distinguishing >>>> the modern era science which everyone dance around and the science existed >>>> time immemorial, ascribed in in the Vedas and Vedanta. FOR THE WEST SCIENCE >>>> MAY BE A PRODUCT OF 1600 AD OR LITTLE EARLIER TO GREECE, ARISTOTLE, >>>> ARCHIMEDES, SOCRATES ETC WHO ARROGANTLY HID THEIR HEADS INTO THE SAND DUNES >>>> LIKE AN OSTRITCH, TRYING NOT TO SEE THE VEDIC COUNTRY, WHERE THEY >>>> RESIDED FOR 200 YEARS DIGGING ALL THE VEDIC CONTENTS RECORDING ALL OF THEM >>>> IN THEIR LANGUAGE WITH A MYTHICAL FERN, ROBBING MANY LEAVES, RESURRECTING >>>> FROM THEM ALL THE OUTBURSTS OF QUICK SCIENCE THE WORLD COULD NOT WITHSTAND >>>> THE RAPID CHANGES. >>>> >>>> 2 In this connection I have to salute them for so many books >>>> written in English translating ,though haphazardly, the entire Vidya of >>>> this nation, which the host failed in giving them to the brothers and >>>> sisters of this nation; while I have to accuse this nation for the failure >>>> to highlight the ancient authors in English or any other language other >>>> than the Sanskrit, of Adi sankaras to sayanas to Madwacharias and many >>>> authors of the Brahmin and west Bengal chatergies of 1800 AD and >>>> thereafter. As SKBji states in one sense the education is useless as 99.99% >>>> of the ONCE LEARNED population of this present learned population, failed >>>> to read books or read books of unimportance or never even where the >>>> libraries do exist. ((.99% were proud of their achievements which include >>>> the “THE- VID” BRAHMINS OF THIS NATION 2% OF THE POPULATION (NOW SOME SAY >>>> IT IS 5%) . There appears to be a light around the tunnel viz the youth of >>>> this nation is beginning to feel about it; I do prey lest the elders do not >>>> act as a spoke. >>>> >>>> 3 Sri SKBji’s regret that science has ended reveals his >>>> knowledge of the science reporting. I also remember a similar recording in >>>> the book THE END OF SCIENCE BY John Horgan a New York journalist in 1970s; >>>> it was followed up magazine, Television interviews also. The crux of the >>>> book is: >>>> >>>> 4 “ John Horgan contends that science—and particularly pure >>>> science rather than applied science, technology and medicine—is coming to >>>> an end. This controversial hypothesis, which has received wide attention, >>>> has at once been greeted by consternation by many (but certainly not all) >>>> in the scientific community while giving comfort to those who want anything >>>> to do with science and technology to go away. >>>> >>>> 5 Einstein's theory of special relativity prohibits the >>>> transmission of matter or even information at speeds faster than that of >>>> light. Quantum mechanics dictates that our knowledge of the micro realm >>>> will always be slightly blurred. Chaos theory confirms that even without >>>> quantum indeterminacy many phenomena would be impossible to predict. And >>>> evolutionary biology keeps reminding us that we are animals, designed by >>>> natural selection not for discovering deep truths of nature but for >>>> breeding. >>>> >>>> 6 For the most part these *over-reachers* have only one >>>> option: to pursue science in a speculative, non-empirical mode that I call >>>> *ironic >>>> science*. Ironic science resembles literature or philosophy or >>>> theology in that it offers points of view, opinions, which are, at best, >>>> "interesting," which provoke further comment. But it does not converge on >>>> the truth. >>>> >>>> One of the most spectacular examples of ironic science is superstring >>>> theory, which for more than a decade has been the leading contender for a >>>> unified theory of physics. Often called a "theory of everything," it posits >>>> that all the matter and energy in the universe and even space and time stem >>>> from infinitesimal, string-like particles wriggling in a hyperspace >>>> consisting of 10 (or more) dimensions. Unfortunately, the micro realm that >>>> superstrings allegedly inhabit is completely inaccessible to human >>>> experimenters. A superstring is supposedly as small in comparison to a >>>> proton as a proton is in comparison to the solar system. Probing this realm >>>> directly would require an accelerator 1,000 light years around. Our entire >>>> solar system is only one light day around. It is this problem that led the >>>> Nobel laureate Sheldon Glashow to compare superstring theorists to >>>> "medieval theologians." *How many superstrings can dance on the head >>>> of a pin? * { KR yoga vasishtam speaks about multi universes in the >>>> edge of a pin. } >>>> >>>> 7 In biology, we have the Gaia hypothesis of Lynn Margulis >>>> and James Lovelock, which suggests that all organisms somehow cooperate to >>>> ensure their self-perpetuation. Then there are the anti-Darwinian proposals >>>> of Brian Goodwin and Stuart Kauffman, who think life stems not primarily >>>> from natural selection but from some mysterious "laws of complexity" that >>>> they have glimpsed in their computer simulations. {KR Yoga vasishtam >>>> speaks about mysterious maya} >>>> >>>> 8 You can't determine the probability of the universe or of >>>> life on earth when you have only one universe and one history of life to >>>> contemplate. So, again, it is true that *answers always raise new >>>> questions. But that does not mean that science will never end. It only >>>> means that science can never answer all possible questions, it can never >>>> quench our curiosity, it can never be complete* If you view atoms and >>>> elements and the double helix and viruses and stars and galaxies as >>>> inventions, projections of our culture, which future cultures may replace >>>> with other convenient illusions*, then you are unlikely to agree with >>>> me that science is finite*. If science is as ephemeral as art, of >>>> course it can continue forever. But if you think that science is a process >>>> of discovery rather than merely of invention, if you believe that science >>>> is capable of achieving genuine truth, then you must take seriously the >>>> possibility that all the great, genuine paradigm shifts are behind us. >>>> >>>> 9 In a way, all biology since Darwin has been normal >>>> science. Even Watson and Crick's discovery of the double helix, although it >>>> has had enormous practical consequences, *merely revealed how heredity >>>> works* on a molecular level. Many modern scientists hope that >>>> advances in computers and mathematics will enable them to transcend their >>>> current knowledge and create a powerful new science. *This is the >>>> faith that sustains the trendy fields of chaos and complexity*. I >>>> termed it in a single term, *chaoplexity,* because, I realized that >>>> there is no significant difference between them. >>>> >>>> 10 The fields of both chaos and complexity have held >>>> out the hope that much of the noise that seems to pervade nature *is >>>> actually pseudo-noise,* the result of some underlying, deterministic >>>> algorithm. But the noise that makes it so difficult to predict earthquakes, >>>> the stock market, the weather and other phenomena, *is not apparent >>>> but very real*. This kind of noisiness will never be reduced to any >>>> simple set of rules, in my view. At some point, we are drifting over the >>>> line from science per se toward engineering. The model either works or >>>> doesn't work according to some standard of effectiveness; "truth" is >>>> irrelevant. Moreover, chaos theory tells us that there is a fundamental >>>> limit to forecasting related to the butterfly effect. One has to know the >>>> initial conditions of a system with infinite precision to be able to >>>> predict its course. According to one of their fundamental tenets, the >>>> butterfly effect, many of their goals may be impossible to achieve. {KR >>>> Yoga vasishtam says that nature is unpredictable} >>>> >>>> 11 Neuroscience will not deliver what so many >>>> philosophers and scientists yearn for. It will not solve all the ancient >>>> philosophical mysteries relating to the mind and the mind-body problem, the >>>> problem of free will, the solipsism paradox, and so on. Nor will >>>> neuroscience demonstrate that consciousness is somehow a necessary >>>> component of existence, which is an idea that is alluring not only to New >>>> Agers but also to scientists and philosophers who should know better. The >>>> universe existed for billions of years before we came along, and it will >>>> continue to exist for eons after we and our minds are gone. {KR: all the >>>> Vedic scriptures of India recited the same thing} Psychologists, social >>>> scientists, neuroscientists and others seeking the key to the human psyche >>>> will periodically seize upon some "new" paradigm as the answer to their >>>> prayers. One paradigm that proves perennially alluring is Darwinian theory, >>>> which in its latest incarnation is called evolutionary psychology. But as >>>> crucial as it is for understanding life in general, *Darwinian theory >>>> does not provide very deep insights into* human nature, as I tried to >>>> show in "The New Social Darwinists," published in the October 1995 >>>> Scientific American. >>>> >>>> 12 N*anotechnology *often compare science to chess. The rules >>>> of chess are quite simple, but the number of possible games that these >>>> rules can give rise to is virtually infinite. One might have more >>>> confidence in scientists' ability *to crack the riddle of senescence* >>>> if they had had more success with a presumably simpler problem: cancer. The >>>> U.S. has spent more than $30 billion on research. But overall mortality >>>> rates have remained pretty much flat since 1971 and in fact for the last 50 >>>> years. >>>> >>>> The best thing about making immortality the primary goal of science, >>>> Sapolsky scientist said, is that it is almost certainly unattainable, so >>>> scientists can keep getting funds for more research forever. >>>> >>>> 13 I describe an interview with the great philosopher Karl Popper, >>>> who argued that scientists can never prove a theory is true; they can only >>>> falsify it, or prove it is false. Naturally I had to ask Popper, Is your >>>> falsifiability hypothesis falsifiable? Popper was 90 (in 1997) then, but >>>> still intellectually armed and very dangerous. He put his hand on my hand, >>>> looked deep into my eyes, and said, very gently, "I don't want to hurt you, >>>> but it is a silly question." >>>> >>>> 14 So obviously any prediction about the future of human >>>> culture is *an educated guess*, at best, at least compared to nuclear >>>> physics, or astronomy, or other disciplines that prove certain facts beyond >>>> a reasonable doubt. {KR uncertainty under BG, Tirukkural and Upanishads a >>>> lot of. Also Perfect astrology of India is certain however, many do the >>>> educated guess. I think my end-of-science scenario is much more plausible >>>> than the ones that I am trying to displace, in which we keep discovering >>>> profound new truths about the universe forever or arrive at an end point in >>>> which we achieve perfect wisdom and mastery over nature. >>>> >>>> 15 We are not going to invent warp-drive spaceships that can >>>> take us to other galaxies or even other universes. We are not going to >>>> become infinitely wise or immortal through genetic engineering. We are not >>>> going to discover the mind of God, as the British physicist Stephen Hawking >>>> once put it. We are not going to know why there is something rather than >>>> nothing. We'll be stuck in a permanent state of wonder before the mystery >>>> of existence which may not be such a terrible thing. After all, our sense >>>> of wonder is the wellspring not only of science but also of art, and >>>> literature, and philosophy, and religion. “(End of his views) >>>> >>>> 16 As seen above, there can be different perceptions also. >>>> However, the perception being duality may look apparent. But only one >>>> perception will be the truth. Time would decide it. KR IRS 20221 >>>> >>>> On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 at 06:30, Markendeya Yeddanapudi < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> *Mar*Emotional-Vs-Mechanical >>>>> >>>>> Hell certainly is real. It is kicking and prospering. It is called >>>>> economic prosperity. It is based on converting the entire Biosphere into a >>>>> usable and abusable resource. In hell emotions and feelings get hurt. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> When you look at your parents, husband, wife, children, friends, your >>>>> pet dog or cat, you want to interact emotionally and not interact with the >>>>> digestion mechanical system, the kidney clearance system, the nervous >>>>> system or any other mechanical system. They are not machines. They are >>>>> entities of emotions meant by nature to >>>>> breathe,smell,sense,perceive,understand,interact,help,love,belong,participate,all >>>>> based on the climate. You live in emotions and feelings and they are part >>>>> of the flora, fauna and geography of emotions. You feel as living by >>>>> breathing. >>>>> >>>>> Climate means the emotions that result from temperature, rainfall, >>>>> the resulting biosphere…the living emotional systems. Perception and >>>>> understanding can only be emotional and never mechanical. Your family and >>>>> friends are not mechanical systems. They are part of the weather and >>>>> climate. You inhale and exhale emotions, as part of the climatic rhythm. >>>>> >>>>> When you poison the air, water, land and geography, you poison your >>>>> emotional flow and emotional life. The gigantic Buildings, Projects, Roads >>>>> etc built after the murder of nature in diverse living forms or emotion >>>>> forms can never bring happiness. They are tragedies. >>>>> >>>>> Science wants you to be rid of emotions to develop the inanimate, non >>>>> emotional, mechanical, scientific outlook and the mechanical or scientific >>>>> temperament. You must attack your own breathing system to develop the >>>>> needed mechanical temperament and start destroying nature for economic >>>>> development. >>>>> >>>>> The net result of this science hysteria is the emergence of economic >>>>> life based on the routine destruction of nature, involving the death and >>>>> misery to every organism in the biosphere, and Lakhs of specie have become >>>>> extinct. >>>>> >>>>> Perception and understanding are the collective symbiotic life of the >>>>> Biosphere as a whole and can never be the isolated individual talent of >>>>> human individuals. Alienation is suicide as living. We need the Biosphere >>>>> for our emotional living, which is the only living. >>>>> >>>>> Now we are coming across persons, who simply write off every feeling >>>>> or even reasoning even without reading or seeing, take pride in egoism and >>>>> proclaim that they have written as they are entitled to show contempt. >>>>> From >>>>> emotional symbiosis, the drift down is contempt based antibiosis. They >>>>> adore their contempt and if anyone shows liking to the object of their >>>>> contempt, they attack. >>>>> >>>>> YM >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "iyer123" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/CACDCHCKT%2BY56v%2BfOsg3dLGqx_mgpSj7dkNp-DZ9%3D3Wwe3TnQ%2BA%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/CACDCHCKT%2BY56v%2BfOsg3dLGqx_mgpSj7dkNp-DZ9%3D3Wwe3TnQ%2BA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "iyer123" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/CAL5XZorBW_dbNBEam41RVCfDg_gt3YC5F_mTrd1fgyhd_CabTA%40mail.gmail.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/CAL5XZorBW_dbNBEam41RVCfDg_gt3YC5F_mTrd1fgyhd_CabTA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "iyer123" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/CAOSW9WuT47PabTShrtwwOudp%2BBGfVF%3DRLEsB15e-C-uK5kMBgA%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/CAOSW9WuT47PabTShrtwwOudp%2BBGfVF%3DRLEsB15e-C-uK5kMBgA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "iyer123" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/CAL5XZoqYrSUJZxS6ZMhAWd3mU0MFhaRVN0%3D3TjN7cftaKxDonw%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/CAL5XZoqYrSUJZxS6ZMhAWd3mU0MFhaRVN0%3D3TjN7cftaKxDonw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "iyer123" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/CAOSW9WvuP7LYRHsaN2pTMvZ_XdhrFWoXAVi9js8DfJTDX69tqw%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/CAOSW9WvuP7LYRHsaN2pTMvZ_XdhrFWoXAVi9js8DfJTDX69tqw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- *Mar* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Thatha_Patty" group. 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