Sir read again; nothing was any creation; substance as prakriti and purusha in the sankhya yoga was the principle of the NASADIYA SUKTAM. iF THERE WAS NOTHING HOW SOMETHING CAN OUT OF NOTHING? pL READ SLOWLY AGAIN WITHOUT BIAS. thank U kr irs cARL SAGAN HAD ALSO WRITTEN ABOUT IT AND SINCE YOU HAVE READ CARL i WROTE IT K Rajaram IRS 9324
On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 10:13, Markendeya Yeddanapudi < [email protected]> wrote: > I have never been able to understand the lesson drilled as > fundamental,that matter can neither be created nor destroyed.Then how has > matter come into existence at all. > Or as I have been writing all the while,when you analyze everything down > to the nothing after the subatomic particle,you come across the abstract > reality of nothing.So matter can neither be created nor destroyed because > there is no matter at all in the first place but only the maya or illusion. > YM > > On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 9:37 PM Rajaram Krishnamurthy < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> 1st Law of Thermodynamics - Energy cannot be created or destroyed. >> >> KR: Matter can neither be created nor be destroyed; Vedic Bowdeekam >> means Physics. >> >> Vedic Principle from verse 1.2 Brihadaranyaka Upanishad through the >> readings of Krishna nanda: >> >> “naiveha kiṁcanāgra āsīt, mṛtyunaivedam āvṛtam āsīt, aśanāyayā, aśanāyā >> hi mṛtyuḥ; tan mano'kuruta ātmanvī syām iti. so'rcann acarat, tasyārcata. >> āpojāyanta, arcate vai me kam abhūd iti; tad evārkasya arkatvam; kaṁ ha vā >> asmai bhavati, ya evam etad arkasya arkatvaṁ veda. “ >> >> The verse arose from Rig Veda NASADIYA SUKTAM. >> >> Originally, there was nothing. (The word NOTHING is to be >> carefully followed; Vedas do not speak untruth). Death was enveloping >> everything. That is all the meaning, literally, of this sentence.(KR: >> NOTHING means it is not shunya; it is the glory of death enveloping all >> That is all). In the beginning of things, what was there? Nothing was >> there. There was a devouring, all-consuming death principle, as it were; >> nothing >> else can we conceive. In the Veda, also, there is this very same point >> reflected in the Nāsadīya Sūkta, which proclaims that, in the beginning, >> *there >> was neither existence, nor non-existence*. What was there, originally? >> Darkness enveloped, as it were, because there *was not the light of >> sensory perception*. {KR absence of evidence is not the absence of the >> existent of any evidence) What we call light is nothing but the *capacity >> of the senses to perceive*. When the senses cannot perceive, we say >> there is no light. [KR: It was there; but we lacked the sense to >> perceive, so we said nothing} In pitch darkness, a kind of light exists; >> but the eyes are incapable of catching the ray of that light. That >> frequency is quite different from the one that is necessary for the eyes to >> perceive. So, when there was no possibility of external consciousness, >> when there was no sensory activity, when there was no distinction between >> the subject and the object, when the seer was not distinguishable from the >> seen, what was there? >> >> Nothing was there! *Naiveha kiṁcanāgra āsīt:* Originally, nothing >> was there, because our idea of 'something' is an 'object'. There is no >> object present, because the object enters the subject, and vice versa. >> Creation is nothing but the projection of externality in Indivisible Being. >> The creation of the universe, therefore, is not actually the manufacture >> of a new substance. *In creation, a new thing is not created, because >> nothing can come from nothing*. If a new thing is to be created, it must >> have been produced out of nothing. How can 'nothing' produce 'something'? >> This is illogical. The effect must have existed in some causal state. This >> causal state is the substance of the universe. Now, what is actually the >> distinctive mark of the universe that is created, as different from the >> original causal condition? In what way does the effect get differentiated >> from the cause? If everything that is in the effect is in the cause, what >> is the distinctive feature, what is the distinguishing mark, which >> separates the effect from the cause? If the effect is entirely different >> from the cause, we cannot posit a cause at all, because the cause is >> non-existent. If the cause is non-existent, the effect also would be >> non-existent. So, the cause must have contained the effect in a primordial >> state; and, therefore, nothing can be visualised in the effect which could >> not have been in the cause. In a sense, therefore, what is in the effect >> is what is in the cause. The effect is the cause. There is no final >> non-distinction between the effect and the cause, inasmuch as in substance >> they are the same. But yet, we make a distinction between the two. >> >> Now, when the effect gets psychologically isolated from the cause, >> there is the seed sown for the further diversity of creation. The two >> become four, four become eight, eight become sixteen, and multiplicity, >> thus, proceeds from the original Single Atom of the cosmos. And, when this >> diversity, which is creation, is conceived as possible and capable of being >> hiddenly present in the cause, we have to assume, also, a peculiar potency >> in the cause, which becomes the reason behind the manifestation of >> diversity. This is called the Śakti in certain philosophies, the force, >> energy, that is present in consciousness, a peculiar indistinguishable, >> indescribable, eluding something, without the assumption of which creation >> cannot be assumed. And, sometimes, people call it Māya, merely because they >> cannot understand what it is. It is not a substance that exists. It is >> rather an inability to grasp the meaning of it; that is all. >> >> So, this cosmological process, the development of the effect from >> the cause, gradually, from the Universal Being, down to the lowest of >> diverse elements – this it is that is described here in this Brāhmaṇa, >> which says that originally nothing was, from where the element of >> distinction between the subject and the object, characterised by a double >> activity of grasping and separation, was evolved, and then arose the Cosmic >> Mind, Hiraṇyagarbha.There will be nothing more in the Absolute than what we >> see in the individual. This conclusion also will follow, if this assumption >> is correct; and it is a very uncomfortable conclusion, because we are >> not seeking in the Absolute merely what is in us. *A million people put >> together cannot be regarded as qualitatively superior to what a single >> individual is*. It is also held that the Absolute is transcendent in the >> sense that it has no connection at all with the visible universe. Often, it >> is also held that the Absolute is so much absorbed in the universe that we >> cannot find it outside the universe. So, we have theories and theories, and >> doctrines and doctrines. >> >> Then application of then philosophy of all the time existent, long after >> became a also known as 1 law of thermodynamics. Then followed by water >> fire etc as seen below in the next verse; and so science was found by us so >> early but the less educated west taught us the science as if freshly found >> by them ; so they cannot educate us. >> >> II āpo vā arkaḥ. tad yad apāṁ śara āsīt, tat samahanyata, sā pṛithivy >> abhavat, tasyām aśrāmyat. tasya śrāntasya taptasya tejo raso >> niravartatāgniḥ. >> >> Here, again, we have some description of the condensation of the dense >> form of things, gradually taking place in the process of creation – the >> subtle becomes gross. The cosmic waters hardened, as it were, became solid, >> gradually, and the Earth element was formed. By the Earth element, what is >> meant here is not merely this little globe of the earth on which we are >> living, but the entire Earth Principle of the whole astronomical universe, >> through which your eyes cannot pass. The whole element of Earth can be >> regarded as the solidified form of this cosmic condition, the subtle nature >> of things which is called here, Waters. It solidified itself. From Fire >> comes Water; from Water comes Earth. This is the chronological order of >> creation of the gross forms, ordinarily speaking. Sā pṛithivy abhavat: That >> became the Earth, the grossened form of things. >> >> >> >> Here is the end of Cosmic creation. There is a famous passage in a text >> of the Vedānta, known as Panchadaśi, written by Sage Vidyāraṇya, who >> describes this in one Sloka: >> >> Iksānadi-praveśāntā ṣṛṣhtirīśena kalpitā. Jāgradādi-vimokṣhantah >> samsāro jivīkalpitaḥ. “ >> >> This passage of the Upaniṣhad, and such other passages are given >> their meaning in this verse of the Panchadaśi. From the Cosmic Will down to >> Divine Immanence, it is Īshvara's creation. From walking till liberation, >> it is the individual's creation. Īshvara's creation or God's creation ends >> with the manifestation of the universal physical form, and God is not >> responsible for what the individual is experiencing. The loves and sorrows, >> the joys and pains, the births and deaths of the individual are not created >> by God. They are created by some other factor which is not to be attributed >> to God. The condensation of the cosmos, right from the causal condition >> down to the physical, through the subtle, may be said to be the manifesting >> activity of God. He becomes the 'All' and becomes also the consciousness of >> the 'All'. But the reversal of attitude, the considering of the object as >> the subject and the subject as the object, and the desire to grab objects >> for the purpose of personal satisfaction, and the capacity to fulfil >> certain desires and the incapacity to fulfil certain others, the getting >> fatigued in personality on account of the inability to fulfil all desires, >> the falling into sleep every day on account of the latent condition of >> desires unfulfilled, etc. – these are all the phenomena of individuality, >> not of Cosmic Being. Even the 'process' of Mokṣha, or liberation, is not >> God's creation, because God has no Mokṣha. He is always in the state of >> Mokṣha only. >> >> THUS 1ST LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS IF UNDERSTOOD CORRECTLY LEADS US >> TO MOSHA. >> >> Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - For a spontaneous process, the entropy of the >> universe increases. >> >> YMji was here. Entropy. Entropy is a scientific concept that is most >> commonly associated with a state of disorder, randomness, or uncertainty. The >> disambiguation. When did that disorder take place? In PRALAYAM AND >> AFTER; so what went into the fold which alone existed, was not visible, as >> there was no sense perception to see in the darkness, even though there was >> light; we felt it was dark. IT WAS THERE AND UNFOLDED IN SRISHTI OR NAME IT >> AS SRISHTI, whereas, it was a manifestation. What was our mind’s perception >> therefore may not be the truth. The manifestation cause had the effect of >> heat; heat spread to cold places; Entropy was caused. Water running from >> high to low is principle so also entropy. HENCE THERE WAS NO EXCEPTION TO >> ANYTHING HAD ONE DONE PHYSICS WELL OR ANCIENT VEDAS GOOD AT LEAST. And >> since matter cannot be erased out, all that high heat energy, reduced to >> normal energy, must be there to recycle; and that recycling is happening >> all around us, effecting, in chain reaction as heat, winter rain etc etc. >> >> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> 3rd Law of Thermodynamics - A perfect crystal at *zero Kelvin* has zero >> entropy. >> >> To reach zero kelvins, you would require an infinite amount of work. And >> even if you could get there, quantum mechanics dictates that the atoms >> and molecules would still have some irreducible motion. That is an >> utopia where unless all atom motions were immovables only THAT ABSOLUTE >> ZERO WILL BE REACHED; Now again go to Vedic 1st; it was dark; and there >> was nothing; IS NOT TRUE, BECAUSE THERE SHALL ALWAYS BE SOME AATOM >> MOVEMENTS; BUT OUR PERCEPTION OF THE MIND WITH THE INABILITY TO SEE THROUGH >> THE DARKNESS, INITIATED 0 TO 100, 32 TO 212 AND THEN MINUS TEMP ETC WHICH >> ARE ALL ABOVE kelvin zero or VEDIC CONCEPT SHOWED THE MOVEMENT OF BRAHMAM. >> It was cold there but as momentum was there, manifestation when starting >> again, heat energy can be generated leading to entropy. So, The >> Brihadaranyaka Upanishad and the Rig veda Nasadiya suktam became A >> WONDERFUL SCIENCE; AND IN SCIENCE EXCEPTIONS ARE NOT THERE; BUT ONLY IN OUR >> MINDS AND PERCEPTION WITH THE CONDITIONED STATUS. So higher can impart >> knowledge to lower and vice versa is impossible. K RAJARAM IRS 9324 >> >> On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 at 21:56, 'gopala krishnan' via iyer123 < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Respected sir, >>> >>> "( An Idiot whose education is less cannot educate a person who is more >>> educated, unless he shouts and bluffs that his shouting is educating.)" >>> >>> I enjoyed the *exception* to the law of thermodynamics >>> Gopalakrishnan >>> >>> On Saturday, 9 March, 2024 at 08:36:26 am IST, Markendeya Yeddanapudi < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Mar*Thermodynamics and Perception Symbiosis >>> >>> >>> >>> Thermodynamics is a study of heat and heat changes. Heat means the >>> movement of molecules and atoms in a system. When the movement is more the >>> heat will be more. When the movement is less the heat or temperature will >>> be less. When there is no movement at all it is absolute zero where there >>> is no movement of molecules or atoms at all, but only the electromagnetic >>> waves zooming at the speed of light. >>> >>> One of the basic principles of Thermodynamics is that the heat from a >>> body where the temperature is more moves into a body whose temperature is >>> comparatively less. The heat from the body whose temperature is less cannot >>> move into a body whose temperature is more. When the heat in the two bodies >>> is same then there is the Thermal equilibrium that is there will be no heat >>> exchange or the movement of molecules between the two bodies.( An Idiot >>> whose education is less cannot educate a person who is more educated, >>> unless he shouts and bluffs that his shouting is educating.) >>> >>> Now let us apply this principle to the Biosphere. Heat from an organism >>> whose temperature is more will be moving into organisms whose temperature >>> is less. It means that the excessive activity or heat from that organism >>> moves into the organisms which are less active. The more active organisms >>> or organisms with more life transfer their surplus to organisms which are >>> less active and deficient of life. The healthy and active organisms >>> automatically transfer health to the less active and less healthy >>> organisms. The organisms are not in the deadly Darwinian war. They >>> automatically help each other. Nature has constituted the symbiosis. >>> >>> Activity always is activity with perception in nature.Machines are not >>> natural at all. They interfere in the automatic perception or thermal >>> transfer. The whole activity among the organisms of the Biosphere is >>> actually symbiotic perception and understanding. The Biosphere as one >>> single organism is students helping students. Technology is disease for the >>> Biosphere, ultimately the single organism. >>> >>> The basic law of Thermodynamics is the basic law of education to the >>> Biosphere wherein all organisms enjoy and learn. Active molecules from the >>> active organisms move into the less active organisms and thus distribute >>> perception and understanding. In free nature where there is no human >>> tampering, all organisms not only get health and strength, but also >>> continuous education. >>> >>> The lifeline of education from nature, the continuous revelations laden >>> education has been cut by our economic destruction. We are fooling not only >>> ourselves but also every other organism. In fact we have diseasified the >>> natural evolution. Evolution is actually education into higher levels by >>> all organisms which mutate symbiotically. Natural evolution is the growth >>> of the Biosphere with more education. >>> >>> It is growth with education and health where education and health are >>> one and same. In free and healthy nature, nature makes you healthy >>> continuously; in fact creating new mutations to keep you healthy. Your >>> health is the result of the symbiosis among all organisms and also nature >>> as Thermodynamics. >>> >>> The human has become the chronic disease of nature. The human has to >>> take to self curing. The first step is to free economics from the >>> mechanical paradigm and make ecology as the basic paradigm. >>> >>> Rene Descartes with his mechanical paradigm dealt the great death blow >>> to nature. Darwin studied the Biosphere as the food chain, not as >>> emotionally linked and symbiotic life forms. He actually ate every animal >>> he researched. My God, the deadly ‘Ds’, Descartes, Darwin and Dawkins,have >>> taken us all into the fanaticism of technology. The natural emotional >>> symbiosis has been killed. >>> >>> And no University can get freedom from the frenzy for more and more >>> technology or assaults on nature. >>> >>> YM >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "iyer123" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/39442903.1299820.1709956561591%40mail.yahoo.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/iyer123/39442903.1299820.1709956561591%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> > > -- > *Mar* > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Thatha_Patty" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. 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