Hi Since some of these RFTG’s seem to have different KS numbers, it’s quite possible that they have different interface requirements. They never were intended as a stand alone piece of gear. The intent was to burry them deep inside a Lucent basestation. The only thing that would ever talk to them would be a higher level piece of custom Lucent code.
I think it is reasonable to believe that boxes of a given generation all would share some sort of common interface, even if they didn’t share the same KS designation. I doubt they wanted to have to many different things to change around on a single basestation design. Since the RFTG’s span decades of designs, there are bound to be multiple generations. Odd little tidbit, they claim that something > 95% of the engineering hours go into software and < 5% go into hardware on a modern basestation design. One more odd piece of code may not matter a lot to them ... Bob > On Oct 26, 2014, at 10:18 AM, R.Phillips <[email protected]> wrote: > > Bob & others > I have the Lucent pair, RFTG-m XO and m-Rb and I have never succeeded in > obtaining an interface to communicate with them. Is it possible that with so > many manufacturers being involved with the specification and build, that an > interface is available ? > Roy > > > -----Original Message----- From: Bob Camp > Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 2:09 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, > Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... > > Hi > > The days of published schematics started to draw to a close 15 or 20 years > ago. By the time the Z3xxx’s came out, they probably didn’t even generate a > “publication ready” schematic. > > Troubleshooting this sort of gizmo simply does not make economic sense. Swap > out the power supply, swap out the OCXO, swap out the GPS module, swap out > the front panel ( or any other attached board). If that doesn’t fix it - > scrap out the unit. If you are not going to use the schematic for repairs, > the only thing it does is make it easy for your competition to clone the > device. > > The “swap whole assemblies” thing started at least 10 years before the > schematics went away. Back then you could easily see why. Custom ASIC this, > custom screened / selected that, non-standard something else. Guess what > *always* broke? Guess which part took a “factory only” test set to calibrate > if you did somehow replace it? (hint - they are the same part ….). > > It’s not just the field repair end of things that have gone this way. The > manufacturing line has done the same thing. Put it together right the first > time. Scrap something less than 0.5% of the finished assemblies. You can’t > afford to set up to replace stuff like fine pitch BGA’s for the money you > would recover on 0.5%. Spend the same money on process control as you used to > on troubleshooting. You’ll drive the 0.5% down to 0.3% (which is how you got > from 10% to 5% to 3% to 1.5% to 1% to 0.5% …). > > The flip side of the repair approach is reliability. Monitor the return rate > on “fixed” units for a while and it’s pretty easy to spot a pattern. That was > true even back in the 1970’s. Back then a “no trouble found” return didn’t > count against your numbers. Those days are long long gone….. Run repaired > units through a full blown battery of qualification testing and see what > happens. Yes you can indeed find / buy / get “rectified” gear. Any more it’s > mostly done by board swapping and re-testing. Much of what they get back is > indeed NTF. Test it and back out it goes. Read the reviews on rectified gear > and you can see the result. > > All that said. > > There have been a number of attempts to trace out schematics of some of these > goodies. Things like the FEI Rb’s, the TBolt’s, and other similar parts are > typical candidates. In each case you get to the boundary of a CPU and / or a > FPGA pretty fast. In some cases there are code dumps on the CPU’s. I have not > seen any dumps on the FPGA’s. With most designs, once you put a fairly large > FPGA (not a CPLD) on the board, you have moved most of the “schematic” into > it. What’s left on the pcb around it is just the analog this and that you > could not pull into the FPGA. That seems to stop these efforts dead. > > The Z3xxx’s are done with varying levels of integration. The newer ones (like > the Trimble completion) tend to be more “big CPU plus big FPGA” surrounded by > not much else. Could you trace one out? Sure, if they didn’t set the security > bits. Would it take some custom gear, yes, but not all *that* custom. eBay > will provide you with all you need for less than the cost of a Z3xxx. Are the > FPGA dumps easy to turn into a schematic - not so much. You are talking about > a lot of time to reverse one of these boards back to the schematic stage. > > Bob > >> On Oct 24, 2014, at 12:27 AM, Tom Miller <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I am surprised the schematics for these have not surfaced yet. Are they not >> out of support now? >> I got a set and am awaiting on a power supply and some connectors. Anyone >> have a source for the latches for the D connectors? >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Roby" <[email protected]> >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> <[email protected]> >> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:39 PM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, >> Z3811A, Z3812... >> >> >>> My curiosity got the better of me so I ordered these earlier this week and >>> received them today. >>> >>> I've powered both up and quickly measured the 10MHz output. I don't yet >>> have a GPS antenna feed that I can connect, so couldn't check that out. And >>> I need to look into why both of the units have the Fault and StdBy lights >>> illuminated. I was surprised how compact they are and they weight next to >>> nothing. And they are very nicely made. I took the tops off both and took >>> some photos (see http://goo.gl/87e8GG), but have not ventured into >>> unscrewing everything to get to the bottom of the boards. From the top, I >>> didn't immediately spot anything extra on the board for the 10MHz out. All >>> the extras appear to be for the GPS, but the underside of the boards may >>> tell a different story. >>> >>> Anthony >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: time-nuts [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob Stewart >>> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:20 PM >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, >>> Z3811A, Z3812... >>> >>> My units came in today. What I got appears to be new-in-box. It's probably >>> the only thing I'll ever get with a blue Agilent sticker on the box. =) It >>> has a yellow Symmetricom notice inside the box. >>> The circuit board appears to be the same on both units, but that says >>> nothing about the firmware, of course. The REF-1 has an Oncore receiver >>> labeled TM-AB - whichever one that is, small parts to support it, and a TNC >>> connector for the GPS receiver. >>> >>> The REF-0 is missing everything related to the receiver, and has an SMA for >>> the 10MHz output in the space where the REF-1 has the TNC along with a few >>> extra small parts. This is a shared space with both SMA and TNC pads, >>> though they don't seem to share the same electrical path. Since the SMA and >>> TNC share the same physical space, even if the 10MHz is available >>> somewhere, you'd have to do some surgery on the case before you could bring >>> it out. Probably by adding a hole in the case for the GPS antenna and using >>> the pad space for the SMA. >>> >>> It will be a day or two before I have the bits to apply power and connect >>> an antenna. So, that's what I know. I'd probably just break something if I >>> tried to find and bring out the 10MHz, so I'll have to leave that to >>> someone else. But, the appropriate signals need to get between the boards, >>> so I wonder what's on the Interface pins? Maybe just arbitration, 1PPS, and >>> sawtooth comms? >>> In my case, I do need the 10MHz, so I'm just as happy to have bought both >>> units at this point. Maybe, down the road, someone will come up with the >>> mods to convert a REF-1 into a REF-0, and vice versa, unless the firmware >>> prevents that. >>> >>> Bob >>> From: GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:59 AM >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, >>> Z3811A, Z3812... >>> >>> It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering >>> these for some time, so perhaps another "hidden" gem:-), but it's perhaps >>> also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to >>> earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit >>> actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a >>> standby should the first one fail. >>> >>> In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users >>> would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better >>> off buying two of those for the same money that the "matched" pair would >>> cost. >>> >>> The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that >>> it contains a 10MHz output. >>> However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 >>> showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the >>> RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available, >>> so I would suspect it wouldn't be too difficult on these either. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Nigel >>> GM8PZR >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 20/10/2014 05:53:29 GMT Daylight Time, >>> [email protected] writes: >>> >>> Fellow time-nuts, >>> >>> This (long) post is a review of the HP/Symmetricom Z3810A (or Z3810AS) >>> GPSDO system built for Lucent circa 2000. I wrote it because I looked for >>> more information before I bought one, and couldn't find much. >>> It's relevant because (as of this writing), you can buy a full system on >>> the usual auction site for about $150 plus shipping. For those of you >>> lamenting the dearth of cheap Thunderbolts, this looks like one of the best >>> deals going. The description of these objects does not include "GPSDO", so >>> time-nuts may have missed it. Search for one of the part numbers in the >>> subject line and you should find it. >>> >>> So what is it? It's a dual GPSDO built by HP as a reference (Redundant >>> Frequency and Time Generator, or RFTG) for a Lucent cell-phone base >>> station, built to Lucent's spec KS-24361. Internally, it's a close cousin >>> of a later-model Z3805A. Externally, it looks to be almost a drop-in >>> replacement for the earlier RFTG system built to Lucent's spec KS-24019. >>> That was a redundant system containing one rubidium (LPRO, in the one I >>> have) and one OCXO in two almost-identical boxes. That spec went through >>> several revisions with slightly different nameplates and presumably >>> slightly different internals. You can generally find one or two examples on >>> the auction site (search for RFTG or KS-24019). >>> >>> This system is similar, but the two boxes each contain a Milliren >>> (MTI) 260-0624-C 5.000MHz DOCXO, and neither contains a rubidium. The >>> Milliren DOXCO is the same one used in the later models of the HP Z3805A / >>> 58503A. It's a very high-performance DOCXO, in the same class as the >>> legendary HP 10811, and better than the one in most surplus Thunderbolts. >>> The 5 MHz output is multiplied up to 10 MHz in at least one unit, and 15 >>> MHz in both units. I don't have the ability to measure phase noise on these >>> outputs, but I'd be interested to see the results if someone could. >>> >>> Nomenclature: The Z3810AS (there always seems to be an "S" at the >>> end) is a system consisting of the Z3811A (the unit containing a GPS >>> receiver), the Z3812A (the unit with no GPS receiver), and the Z3809A (a >>> stupid little interconnect cable). The GPS receiver inside the Z3811A is a >>> Motorola device, presumably some version of an OnCore. >>> Where the Z3811A has a TNC GPS antenna input, the Z3812A has an SMA >>> connector labeled "10MHz TP". That is indeed a 10 MHz output. It comes >>> active as soon as power is applied to the unit, and its frequency follows >>> the warmup curve of the OCXO. The two units have identical PCBs (stuffed >>> slightly differently), and I have no doubt that someone can figure out how >>> to add a 10 MHz output to the Z3811A as well. >>> >>> Operation: From the outside, these units are broadly similar to earlier >>> units in the Lucent RFTG series. The (extremely valuable) website run by >>> Didier, KO4BB, has a lot of information on those earlier units, much of >>> which still applies here. The purpose of these units was to provide a >>> reliable source of frequency and timing information to the cell-site >>> electronics. The 15 MHz outputs from both units were connected to a power >>> combiner/splitter and directed to various parts of the transmitter. The >>> units negotiate with each other so that only one 15 MHz output is active at >>> a time. The outputs labeled "RS422/1PPS" contained a 4800 baud (?) serial >>> time code as well as the PPS signal, which were sent to the control >>> computer. >>> >>> Power is applied to the connector labeled "+24VDC" and "P1", in exactly the >>> same way as the earlier RFTG units. Apply +24V to pin 1 and the other side >>> of the power supply (GND or RTN) to pin 2. In these units, that power >>> supply goes directly to an isolated Lucent DC/DC converter brick labeled >>> "IN: DC 18-36, 1.9A". Presumably you can run both units with a 4-amp supply. >>> >>> Once you have applied power, connect the Z3809A cable between the jacks >>> labeled "INTERFACE J5" on each unit. The earlier RFTG units used a special >>> cable between two DE-9 connectors, and it mattered which end of the cable >>> connected to which unit. The interconnect for these units is a high-density >>> DE-15 connector (like a VGA plug). The Z3809A cable is so short that the >>> two units need to be stacked one above the other, or the cable won't reach. >>> It doesn't seem to matter which end of the cable goes to which unit. I >>> don't know whether it's a straight-through cable, or whether you could use >>> a VGA cable as a substitute. >>> >>> When you apply power, all the LEDs on the front panel will flash. The "NO >>> GPS" light will continue flashing until you connect a GPS antenna. >>> Once it sees a satellite, the light will stop flashing and remain on. >>> The unit will conduct a self-survey for several hours. Eventually, if all >>> is well, the Z3812A ("REF 0" on its front panel) will show one green "ON" >>> light and the Z3811A ("REF 1") will show one yellow "STBY" >>> light. This means that the Z3812A is actually transmitting its 15MHz >>> output, and the other one is silently waiting to take over if it fails. >>> >>> Most time-nuts want to see more than a pretty green light. The old RFTG >>> series allowed you to hook up a PC to the "RS422/PPS" port and peek under >>> the hood with a diagnostic program. The program is available on the KO4BB >>> website. It is written for an old version of Windows, and I had no luck >>> getting it to run under Windows 7. It does run under WINE (the Windows >>> emulator for Linux) on Ubuntu 12.04 LTS. >>> To use it, you need to make an adapter cable to connect the oddball >>> RS-422 pinout to a conventional PC RS-232 pinout. The adapter cable looks >>> like this: >>> >>> RFTG PC >>> >>> DE-9P DE-9S >>> >>> 7 <----------> 5 >>> >>> 8 <----------> 3 >>> >>> 9 <----------> 2 >>> >>> (According to the official specs, this is cheating, because you're >>> connecting the negative side of the differential RS-422 signals to the >>> RS-232, and ignoring the positive side of the differential signals. >>> However, it's a standard hack, and it's worked every time I've tried >>> it.) >>> >>> With that adapter, you can see the periodic timetag reports from the unit. >>> The RFTG program will interpret these timetags when it starts up in "normal >>> mode". However, when I try to use any of the diagnostic features built into >>> the program, it crashes WINE. The timetag output was required for >>> compatibility, but I suspect that HP didn't bother to implement the Lucent >>> diagnostics. >>> >>> Instead, they added a connector which is not on the previous RFTG series. >>> That connector is labeled, logically enough, "J8-DIAGNOSTIC". >>> It too is wired with RS-422, so you need to use the same adapter cable as >>> before. Once you do, you'll find that this connector speaks the usual HP >>> SCPI command set (Hooray!). I used the official SATSTAT program (again >>> under WINE on 12.04 LTS), but I'm sure that other programs written for this >>> command set will work as well. The default SATSTAT serial port settings of >>> 9600-8-N-1 worked for me. >>> >>> After about 24 hours, with a poorly-sited indoor GPS antenna, my system has >>> converged to TFOM=3, FFOM=0 (the best possible numbers), and a "predicted >>> 24-hour holdover uncertainty" of 5.2 microseconds, which is not too shabby. >>> It found the correct day and year without any assistance, so if it has a >>> "GPS week number rollover" problem, it's still in the future. I don't >>> currently have the ability to compare the 10 MHz output to anything else. >>> Again, if someone else can, I'd be interested to see the results. >>> >>> Additional Notes: The parts on the boards all have date codes of 1998 or >>> 1999. The Motorola GPS receiver has a firmware label that reads "02/04/00". >>> The SCPI error logs inside the HP units were virgin when I first got them. >>> They had 84 and 94 power cycles, respectively. >>> Before the GPS receiver acquired time, the error log timestamps read >>> "2000-05-09 00:00:00", which I interpret as a firmware release date. >>> >>> The PCB has an interesting feature. Next to each soldered-in pin of the >>> Milliren OCXO is a single-pin socket soldered into the board. I'm guessing >>> this was used in manufacturing, to temporarily install a Milliren and >>> confirm that the system worked before permanently soldering it in. (At >>> production prices, the Milliren would have cost far more than the rest of >>> the PCB.) You might be able to use this in reverse, if you have a set of >>> Millirens to test from another source. >>> >>> The Z3809A interconnect cable has three of the 15 pins on each end clipped >>> a bit shorter than the rest. Not so short that they won't eventually make >>> contact, but short enough to make contact later than the rest. Don't know >>> why, but it's clearly deliberate. A lot of hot-plug connectors are built >>> that way, including USB connectors. I have no idea what the pinout of the >>> interconnect is. >>> >>> The redundant system slaves both DOCXOs to the same GPS reference. >>> Inside the GPS loop bandwidth, the two oscillators will have almost the >>> same frequency and will differ only by phase noise and short-term >>> stability. This is almost a perfect setup for experimenting with certain >>> kinds of time-nut measurements, assuming someone can figure out how to get >>> 10MHz out of the Z3811A unit. If you then command both units into holdover, >>> you could measure longer-term stability as well. >>> >>> The units are described as "new in factory sealed box". After an >>> archeological investigation of the various strata of labels and tape on the >>> boxes, I would say that's probably accurate. My set seems to have been >>> shipped from the Agilent factory in Korea to Symmetricom in Sunnyvale, CA >>> sometime in August, 2000, shortly after it was built, and remained >>> untouched until I opened it. I'm guessing it was built and saved as part of >>> a spares program for Lucent, and kept until Lucent decided they didn't need >>> spares any more. >>> >>> I have no connection with the current seller of these units (or any other >>> sellers, for that matter) except as a satisfied customer. I think I'll >>> order another set as a spare, before the feeding frenzy hits. >>> >>> Request for help: Both the SatStat and RFTG programs run under WINE on >>> stock Ubuntu 12.04 LTS (32-bit) without any tricks or special >>> configuration. Neither seems to run under WINE on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS >>> (64-bit). I am a WINE novice. Any hints from WINE experts would be >>> appreciated. Also, I've been able to run TimeLab under WINE, but I can't >>> connect it to my USB-to-488 interface, so I can't take data. If anyone can >>> tell me how to set that up, I'd be extremely grateful. >>> >>> Cheers! >>> --Stu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
